Different control points seeing different things

[DavidHB]

(13-04-2015 15:57)samirevah Wrote:  I'm beginning to believe that caching of cover art may be the cause of the issues I'm seeing with Lumin since I have a significant number of tracks with multiple embedded images. I would agree with David that it would be good to have the option of turning caching off for these cases, as I really have no desire to re-size all my artwork just to make it more palatable for a specific CP.

While the Album Art may be a factor, I'm not sure that it's the whole story. In another thread, Simon linked to the section of the MinimServer User Guide which says

" ... some control points (for example, the LUMIN app) create their own index lists using XML metadata information."

The whole idea of MinimServer's intelligent browsing feature is that the browse tree is constructed on the fly using MinimServer's own indexes. LUMIN is, in effect, duplicating something that it should leave MinimServer to do better. If this indexing process includes the caching of lots of album art, that will also be a factor. But the real problem is that LUMIN is doing in user time what MinimServer has already done in advance. Because Bubble and Kazoo use the MinimServer indexes (or at least that is what I infer from the way they present the browse tree), you don't get the overhead of duplicated effort, and the CP starts much more quickly.

To be fair, I doubt that things are really quite as simple as I have described. But unnecessary and unhelpful duplication of processing effort, and the over-riding of user choices (in this case, those made in configuring MinimServer) are surely to be avoided if at all possible.

David

[simoncn]

(13-04-2015 17:51)DavidHB Wrote:  While the Album Art may be a factor, I'm not sure that it's the whole story. In another thread, Simon linked to the section of the MinimServer User Guide which says

" ... some control points (for example, the LUMIN app) create their own index lists using XML metadata information."

The whole idea of MinimServer's intelligent browsing feature is that the browse tree is constructed on the fly using MinimServer's own indexes. LUMIN is, in effect, duplicating something that it should leave MinimServer to do better. If this indexing process includes the caching of lots of album art, that will also be a factor. But the real problem is that LUMIN is doing in user time what MinimServer has already done in advance. Because Bubble and Kazoo use the MinimServer indexes (or at least that is what I infer from the way they present the browse tree), you don't get the overhead of duplicated effort, and the CP starts much more quickly.

To be fair, I doubt that things are really quite as simple as I have described. But unnecessary and unhelpful duplication of processing effort, and the over-riding of user choices (in this case, those made in configuring MinimServer) are surely to be avoided if at all possible.

David

As a server author, I would naturally agree with you that the server's organizational structure for how the library should be presented and browsed should be followed faithfully by control points.

If I were a control point author, I could imagine having the view that the server should be just a database and presentation decisions should be the responsibility of the control point.

[Peter StreamMagic]

   

(13-04-2015 08:08)Peter StreamMagic Wrote:  

(13-04-2015 06:28)Peter@57m Wrote:  samirevah,

Which iPad do you have? I have an iPad Air which scans my 680 albums, 8835 tracks quickly but my old iPad v2 takes many minutes.

Lumin downloads the artwork and metadata to the iPad not sure what Lightning does.

I like the Lumin app, just leave the app open when you listen to music and it should get there in the end.

Lightning does not download artwork.

Peter.

I did misinterpret the DS user guide    
It does in fact download artwork after initializing.
I noticed a lot of difference how many memory space the various apps take.
In my case the worst working app uses the most memory.
StreamMagic : 933 MB/app 27 MB
Lumin : 207 MB/app 10.5 MB
CA Connect :89.2 MB/app10.7 MB
DS Lightning : 334 MB (before downloading art work 184 kB)/app 51.1 MB.
All numbers based on both using my NAS and PC approx. 1250 albums without clearing any cache.

Peter

[DavidHB]

(13-04-2015 19:24)simoncn Wrote:  As a server author, I would naturally agree with you that the server's organizational structure for how the library should be presented and browsed should be followed faithfully by control points.

If I were a control point author, I could imagine having the view that the server should be just a database and presentation decisions should be the responsibility of the control point.

That's very fair-minded . As I am neither a server author nor a control point author, but just a user, I can just hope that UPnP turf wars will soon become a thing of the past.

What most users need is controllability (which implies a reasonable range of user options), consistency (which in the present and any likely future state of the technology means across multiple platforms and devices) and a smooth experience. The server (being common to the whole of the system) is best placed to provide the consistency, and is therefore the best place to make decisions about user options and many aspects of the user experience.

If I'm right about this, the Control Point is a function of the player(s), and the player(s) are, to a significant extent, a function of the server. It's almost a manifestation of Linn's 'source first' philosophy, translated into a slightly different context. And it implies that whatever can be done efficiently in the server should be done in the server; MinimServer demonstrates that this definitely includes indexing and the construction of the browse tree.

David

[DavidHB]

(13-04-2015 20:19)Peter StreamMagic Wrote:  I noticed a lot of difference how many memory space the various apps take.
In my case the worst working app uses the most memory.
StreamMagic : 933 MB/app 27 MB
Lumin : 207 MB/app 10.5 MB
CA Connect :89.2 MB/app10.7 MB
DS Lightning : 334 MB (before downloading art work 184 kB)/app 51.1 MB.
All numbers based on both using my NAS and PC approx. 1250 albums without clearing any cache.

In case it's of any interest, the comparable figures for Bubble DS on Android are Data 17MB and App 28MB, but there is also a cache of 185MB. With the cache cleared, there was no loss of speed in accessing the browse tree, so I'm uncertain how the cache is used.

I also have Kinsky on the same tablet, though I do not use it much. This shows 13MB for the app and a mere 60KB for the data, including the cache.

These figures are for a music library of approximately 600 albums (many multi-disc). The only conclusion I can draw from all this is that there is no conclusion to draw.

David

[simoncn]

(13-04-2015 20:34)DavidHB Wrote:  That's very fair-minded . As I am neither a server author nor a control point author, but just a user, I can just hope that UPnP turf wars will soon become a thing of the past.

What most users need is controllability (which implies a reasonable range of user options), consistency (which in the present and any likely future state of the technology means across multiple platforms and devices) and a smooth user experience. The server (being common to the whole of the system) is best placed to provide the consistency, and is therefore the best place to make decisions about user options and many aspects of the user experience.

If I'm right about this, the Control Point is a function of the player(s), and the player(s) are, to a significant extent, a function of the server. It's almost a manifestation of Linn's 'source first' philosophy, translated into a slightly different context. And it implies that whatever can be done efficiently in the server should be done in the server; MinimServer demonstrates that this definitely includes indexing and the construction of the browse tree.

David

Again, I would agree with your perspective, but continuing to play devil's advocate:

Some users want a great experience on a single UI platform and don't care very much about cross-platform consistency. For these users, it might be more attractive to get their preferred UI experience by using a specific control point instead of by making customization tweaks to the server.

[Peter@57m]

I use Lumin as I like the UI, I find it concise and easy to use.

Its standard indexing provides the following views:
. Song Title
. Album Title
. Artist
. Composer (optional)
. Genre
. Year
. Newest added to the server

These views were pretty much available from release. Subsequently the Lumin app has added radio streams and "folders".

When you use MinimStreamer as the server, then "folders" provides you with the top level indexes that you have setup in MinimStreamer. You then still get the Lumin UI to browse these indexes.

So most of the time I just use the standard UI but if I want to go looking for something that I have setup a custom index field in MinimStreamer, then I can do that too.

Browsing by artwork etc. in Lumin is much faster than Kazoo. Kazoo is OK on a fast PC but not on an iPad.

Yes you are limited to iPad being the only supported device. But if you have one that's fine. Also it will run on early model iPads as well (I have a v2) which Kazoo will not.

[DavidHB]

@simoncn

(13-04-2015 21:20)simoncn Wrote:  Again, I would agree with your perspective, but continuing to play devil's advocate:

When will I need to be making a donation for MinimControl? ...

(13-04-2015 21:20)simoncn Wrote:  Some users want a great experience on a single UI platform and don't care very much about cross-platform consistency. For these users, it might be more attractive to get their preferred UI experience by using a specific control point instead of by making customization tweaks to the server.

True, but in my experience such preferences are rarely stable. We all want to move on to new things from time to time, and for the users you describe, elements of cross platform consistency can make transitions significantly easier.

Our field of activity is one where, often, what users want is not the same as what they think they want. Users tend to think that they want things to "just work" out of the box, but the technology of our hobby is such that you have to make it work yourself, unless you buy a 'closed box' system like Sonos. For the those who are prepared to work outside the closed box, the process of discovery is, of course, all part of the fun.


@Peter@57m

(14-04-2015 09:45)Peter@57m Wrote:  When you use MinimStreamer as the server, then "folders" provides you with the top level indexes that you have setup in MinimStreamer. You then still get the Lumin UI to browse these indexes.

Do you mean MinimServer? (MinimStreamer doesn't set up indexes.) If you do, I'm now confused. Simon's statement in the MinimServer User Guide seems to be saying something rather different. I don't have an iPad, so I can't test for myself.

David

[simoncn]

(14-04-2015 10:39)DavidHB Wrote:  When will I need to be making a donation for MinimControl? ...

This isn't on my radar screen, even as a faint shadow.

Quote:Our field of activity is one where, often, what users want is not the same as what they think they want. Users tend to think that they want things to "just work" out of the box, but the technology of our hobby is such that you have to make it work yourself, unless you buy a 'closed box' system like Sonos. For the those who are prepared to work outside the closed box, the process of discovery is, of course, all part of the fun.

We have a genuine difference of opinion here. If creating, maintaining, accessing and playing a digital library isn't approximately as easy as doing the same for a library of CDs, one of two things will happen:

1) Digital audio will be a niche hobby for technically savvy and technically motivated users. This would be at most 2% of all users.

2) Digital audio using open standards to mix and match system components will be a niche hobby for technically savvy and technically motivated users. This would be at most 2% of all users. The other 98% will embrace and become locked into a proprietary ecosystem such as Apple, Amazon, Sonos, Linn, Naim, etc. or will rely on a streaming service such as Spotify, Qobuz, Tidal etc.

[DavidHB]

(14-04-2015 15:22)simoncn Wrote:  We have a genuine difference of opinion here. If creating, maintaining, accessing and playing a digital library isn't approximately as easy as doing the same for a library of CDs, one of two things will happen:

1) Digital audio will be a niche hobby for technically savvy and technically motivated users. This would be at most 2% of all users.

2) Digital audio using open standards to mix and match system components will be a niche hobby for technically savvy and technically motivated users. This would be at most 2% of all users. The other 98% will embrace and become locked into a proprietary ecosystem such as Apple, Amazon, Sonos, Linn, Naim, etc. or will rely on a streaming service such as Spotify, Qobuz, Tidal etc.

Actually, I think we agree completely. If your 'proprietary ecosystem' is the same concept as my 'closed box' (which I think it is), then my 'outside the box' is the same as your 'using open standards'; indeed, I prefer your terminology to my own.

Long experience tells me that "creating, maintaining, accessing and playing ... a library of CDs" (or LPs for that matter) is not a trivial task. If the CD collection is to be more than a largely inaccessible pile of unsorted jewel cases, storage has to be provided, and order has to be established and maintained as the collection grows. Once the collection reaches a certain size, cataloguing becomes essential for many people. Finding the discs you wish to play and returning them to the correct location after use also need to be orderly and disciplined processes. We tend to take these things for granted now, but I remember learning them in my youth. And I would argue that this 'library' activity provides at least some of the satisfaction one gets from owning the collection.

Now whether the process of ripping and tagging CDs and storing downloaded music (perhaps with additional tagging) in the collection is or ever could be "approximately as easy" as maintaining the physical collection is a matter of opinion. Some people shy away from anything involving a computer. Bringing the CD or download into the collection is more time-consuming than simply opening a jewel case and putting the disc onto the player tray, but once the music is recognised by the CP it is far more accessible than a CD on a shelf. And ripping to FLAC with dBpoweramp is certainly as easy as ripping into an iTunes or Windows Media Player library, which many people are happy to do.

So, while I agree with your general premise, and am sure that those who prefer the capabilities of open systems will always be in the minority, all the signs are that the quality end of the audio market will continue to use the UPnP/open systems approach. One just hopes that this can be done in a somewhat less haphazard way than it is at present.

David