Different control points seeing different things

[Peter@57m]

(14-04-2015 10:39)DavidHB Wrote:  @Peter@57m

(14-04-2015 09:45)Peter@57m Wrote:  When you use MinimStreamer as the server, then "folders" provides you with the top level indexes that you have setup in MinimStreamer. You then still get the Lumin UI to browse these indexes.

Do you mean MinimServer? (MinimStreamer doesn't set up indexes.) If you do, I'm now confused. Simon's statement in the MinimServer User Guide seems to be saying something rather different. I don't have an iPad, so I can't test for myself.

David

Sorry typo - yes MinimServer in both cases

[DavidHB]

(14-04-2015 15:22)simoncn Wrote:  We have a genuine difference of opinion here. If creating, maintaining, accessing and playing a digital library isn't approximately as easy as doing the same for a library of CDs, one of two things will happen:

1) Digital audio will be a niche hobby for technically savvy and technically motivated users. This would be at most 2% of all users.

2) Digital audio using open standards to mix and match system components will be a niche hobby for technically savvy and technically motivated users. This would be at most 2% of all users. The other 98% will embrace and become locked into a proprietary ecosystem such as Apple, Amazon, Sonos, Linn, Naim, etc. or will rely on a streaming service such as Spotify, Qobuz, Tidal etc.

Actually, I think we agree completely. If your 'proprietary ecosystem' is the same concept as my 'closed box' (which I think it is), then my 'outside the box' is the same as your 'using open standards'; indeed, I prefer your terminology to my own.

Long experience tells me that "creating, maintaining, accessing and playing ... a library of CDs" (or LPs for that matter) is not a trivial task. If the CD collection is to be more than a largely inaccessible pile of unsorted jewel cases, storage has to be provided, and order has to be established and maintained as the collection grows. Once the collection reaches a certain size, cataloguing becomes essential for many people. Finding the discs you wish to play and returning them to the correct location after use also need to be orderly and disciplined processes. We tend to take these things for granted now, but I remember learning them in my youth. And I would argue that this 'library' activity provides at least some of the satisfaction one gets from owning the collection.

Now whether the process of ripping and tagging CDs and storing downloaded music (perhaps with additional tagging) in the collection is or ever could be "approximately as easy" as maintaining the physical collection is a matter of opinion. Some people shy away from anything involving a computer. Bringing the CD or download into the collection is more time-consuming than simply opening a jewel case and putting the disc onto the player tray, but once the music is recognised by the CP it is far more accessible than a CD on a shelf. And ripping to FLAC with dBpoweramp is certainly as easy as ripping into an iTunes or Windows Media Player library, which many people are happy to do.

So, while I agree with your general premise, and am sure that those who prefer the capabilities of open systems will always be in the minority, all the signs are that the quality end of the audio market will continue to use the UPnP/open systems approach. One just hopes that this can be done in a somewhat less haphazard way than it is at present.

David

[DavidHB]

(14-04-2015 09:45)Peter@57m Wrote:  When you use MinimStreamer as the server, then "folders" provides you with the top level indexes that you have setup in MinimStreamer. You then still get the Lumin UI to browse these indexes ... Sorry typo - yes MinimServer in both cases.

Thanks. Is "folders" based on the file system folder structure (like the MinimServer folder view), or are the "folders" nodes on an index tree? Control points often represent the index list as if it were a set of folders, which is an intuitively attractive metaphor, but is potentially confusing.

If the LUMIN "folders" are like the MinimServer folder view (or are essentially the same thing), that would make sense, as servers and control points regularly provide this facility. What makes less sense, as I said, is that LUMIN creates indexes of its own

David

[simoncn]

(14-04-2015 18:22)DavidHB Wrote:  Thanks. Is "folders" based on the file system folder structure (like the MinimServer folder view), or are the "folders" nodes on an index tree? Control points often represent the index list as if it were a set of folders, which is an intuitively attractive metaphor, but is potentially confusing.

The LUMIN app "folders" are nodes in the MinimServer browse tree. One of these nodes is [folder view], which provides access to the file system structure.

[simoncn]

(14-04-2015 17:50)DavidHB Wrote:  Long experience tells me that "creating, maintaining, accessing and playing ... a library of CDs" (or LPs for that matter) is not a trivial task. If the CD collection is to be more than a largely inaccessible pile of unsorted jewel cases, storage has to be provided, and order has to be established and maintained as the collection grows. Once the collection reaches a certain size, cataloguing becomes essential for many people. Finding the discs you wish to play and returning them to the correct location after use also need to be orderly and disciplined processes. We tend to take these things for granted now, but I remember learning them in my youth. And I would argue that this 'library' activity provides at least some of the satisfaction one gets from owning the collection.

Your point about the "cost" of maintaining a large library of CDs is well taken. On the flip side, the "entry cost" of acquiring and playing a small number of CDs is very low. I think we still have a long way to go in the open digital world to come close to matching this "entry cost".

[Peter@57m]

(14-04-2015 19:10)simoncn Wrote:  

(14-04-2015 18:22)DavidHB Wrote:  Thanks. Is "folders" based on the file system folder structure (like the MinimServer folder view), or are the "folders" nodes on an index tree? Control points often represent the index list as if it were a set of folders, which is an intuitively attractive metaphor, but is potentially confusing.

The LUMIN app "folders" are nodes in the MinimServer browse tree. One of these nodes is [folder view], which provides access to the file system structure.

Lumin app "folders" are MinimServer nodes including folders which is the physical folders.

Hopefully I've attach a screenshot, unfortunately the last one partially showing is the folders folder

[Peter StreamMagic]

(14-04-2015 19:33)Peter@57m Wrote:  

(14-04-2015 19:10)simoncn Wrote:  

(14-04-2015 18:22)DavidHB Wrote:  Thanks. Is "folders" based on the file system folder structure (like the MinimServer folder view), or are the "folders" nodes on an index tree? Control points often represent the index list as if it were a set of folders, which is an intuitively attractive metaphor, but is potentially confusing.

The LUMIN app "folders" are nodes in the MinimServer browse tree. One of these nodes is [folder view], which provides access to the file system structure.

Lumin app "folders" are MinimServer nodes including folders which is the physical folders.

Hopefully I've attach a screenshot, unfortunately the last one partially showing is the folders folder

Don't you find it inconvenient that Lumin adds pictures to these "folders" I do rather see them blank!
May be there is a setting to achieve this ?

Peter.

[DavidHB]

(14-04-2015 19:10)simoncn Wrote:  The LUMIN app "folders" are nodes in the MinimServer browse tree. One of these nodes is [folder view], which provides access to the file system structure.

Wouldn't it make sense for the LUMIN app to leave things at that, and not generate (or at least have the option not to generate) its own indexes?

David

[DavidHB]

(14-04-2015 19:33)Peter@57m Wrote:  Lumin app "folders" are MinimServer nodes including folders which is the physical folders.

Hopefully I've attach a screenshot, unfortunately the last one partially showing is the folders folder

Thank you. That is clear now.


David

[DavidHB]

(14-04-2015 19:16)simoncn Wrote:  Your point about the "cost" of maintaining a large library of CDs is well taken. On the flip side, the "entry cost" of acquiring and playing a small number of CDs is very low. I think we still have a long way to go in the open digital world to come close to matching this "entry cost".

I entirely agree. And the "entry cost" applies not just to getting into digital music but also each time we add a CD or download to the collection. There is what I regard as a good return in terms of the ease of later access, but it is understandable that some people find the up front cost off-putting.

A related problem is that is the attempts often made in proprietary systems to simplify (which all too often means 'dumb down') systems and thereby to reduce the entry cost. New users will find approaches of this kind attractive until they discover the limitations. My ownership of a Brennan JB7 was an experience of this kind .

David