Post Reply 
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Streamlining the browsing tree & multiple configs
23-09-2013, 00:50 (This post was last modified: 23-09-2013 00:51 by DavidHB.)
Post: #61
RE: Streamlining the browsing tree & multiple configs
(22-09-2013 23:37)haggis999 Wrote:  I reckon that I will want to select by composer and work about as often as I would wish to select by album. For this reason, it would be important for me to have the ability to select a list of various works by a given composer without making any distinction between single and multitrack works.

Isn't this what would happen with the scheme described by Simon in any case? As I understand it, the Composer listing would include all tracks ascribed to that composer; those with Composition set would simply show as one entry under each composition name.

(the other) David
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
23-09-2013, 06:43
Post: #62
RE: Streamlining the browsing tree & multiple configs
(22-09-2013 23:37)haggis999 Wrote:  I reckon that I will want to select by composer and work about as often as I would wish to select by album. For this reason, it would be important for me to have the ability to select a list of various works by a given composer without making any distinction between single and multitrack works. I guess this means I will have to implement my WorkOrTrackTitle proposal.

Another option is to make Group and Work independent tags, instead of aliasing Work to Group. I think this would be the best approach for what you want to do. With this approach, your multiple-track works would be tagged with both Group and Work, and your single-track works would be tagged with Work only.

Quote:That's a clever solution! However, I don't know anyone with an Android tablet who could demonstrate it in action (in contrast, both of our sons have iPads, so I can always try out an iPad app). Does MinimServer send the Group tag value to all control points as the "Album" value, or is this just done for BubbleDS/BubbleUPnP?

MinimServer does this for all control points.

Quote:Apart from BubbleUPnP and Kinsky, are there any other control points you can recommend?

I use BubbleDS and Kinsky myself. I have tried a number of others, which all have their good and bad points. My situation is a bit different from yours, as I need to use a control point that understands the Linn DS extensions to UPnP. Also, I don't have an iPad, so I'm unable to try any of the control points that are designed to take advantage of the iPad.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
23-09-2013, 08:47
Post: #63
RE: Streamlining the browsing tree & multiple configs
(23-09-2013 00:50)DavidHB Wrote:  Isn't this what would happen with the scheme described by Simon in any case? As I understand it, the Composer listing would include all tracks ascribed to that composer; those with Composition set would simply show as one entry under each composition name.

(the other) David

That's correct, except that it would be the tracks with a Group (not Composition) tag that would appear as a single item in the <n> items list and in the results from any index selections. This is how I find everythng in my library for a particular composer.

The Group tag creates a structural grouping of multiple tracks into a single item for browsing purposes. The Composition (or Work) tag doesn't create this structural grouping, but provides an index selection that can be applied either to groups or individual tracks.

The Composition (or Work) tag and the Group tag are independent and can be used either together or separately. For example, my double album "The Mystery Sonatas" by Biber consists of 59 tracks. It is tagged as a single Composition and I have grouped it as follows:

The Five Joyful Mysteries I (a group of 4 tracks)
....
The Five Joyful Mysteries V (a group of 5 tracks)
The Five Sorrowful Mysteries VI (a group of 3 tracks)
....
The Five Sorrowful Mysteries X (a group of 5 tracks)
The Five Glorious Mysteries XI (a group of 3 tracks)
....
The Five Glorious Mysteries XV (a group of 4 tracks)
Passacaglia (a single track)

An alternative grouping would be the following:

The Five Joyful Mysteries (a group of 18 tracks)
The Five Sorrowful Mysteries (a group of 21 tracks)
The Five Glorious Mysteries (a group of 19 tracks)
Passacaglia (a single track)
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
23-09-2013, 12:54 (This post was last modified: 23-09-2013 12:59 by DavidHB.)
Post: #64
RE: Streamlining the browsing tree & multiple configs
(23-09-2013 08:47)simoncn Wrote:  ... the tracks with a Group (not Composition) tag that would appear as a single item in the <n> items list and in the results from any index selections. This is how I find everythng in my library for a particular composer.

The Group tag creates a structural grouping of multiple tracks into a single item for browsing purposes. The Composition (or Work) tag doesn't create this structural grouping, but provides an index selection that can be applied either to groups or individual tracks.

The Composition (or Work) tag and the Group tag are independent and can be used either together or separately. For example, my double album "The Mystery Sonatas" by Biber consists of 59 tracks. It is tagged as a single Composition and I have grouped it as follows:

The Five Joyful Mysteries I (a group of 4 tracks)
....
The Five Joyful Mysteries V (a group of 5 tracks)
The Five Sorrowful Mysteries VI (a group of 3 tracks)
....
The Five Sorrowful Mysteries X (a group of 5 tracks)
The Five Glorious Mysteries XI (a group of 3 tracks)
....
The Five Glorious Mysteries XV (a group of 4 tracks)
Passacaglia (a single track)

An alternative grouping would be the following:

The Five Joyful Mysteries (a group of 18 tracks)
The Five Sorrowful Mysteries (a group of 21 tracks)
The Five Glorious Mysteries (a group of 19 tracks)
Passacaglia (a single track)

This seems clear (and very interesting), and usefully amplifies the 'Groups and Compositions' section of the User Guide. It might be helpful to provide a usage example in that section. Those who, like me, never miss an opportunity to misread a manual will then understand that Group is a specific tag that is so named. I know that the capital letter should have been a clue ...

I'd also like to check the implications for my metadata structure. Is the following correct?
  • Both the 'Work' (aka 'Composition') and 'Group' tags would become standard within the structure, though not necessarily used.
  • Both Work and Group would be need to be in indexTags (the User Guide is silent on this).
  • Information in Work would typically not be duplicated in Track. This implies that for both to show up in the track listing on the Control Point, there would need to be a tagFormat entry of something like Track.displayFormat={$work$track$}.
  • Group would not be displayed as such; but would only be used as a substitute for Track when displaying the group name rather than individual track names. The data in Group would typically be either the same as Work or (as in your example) a subset of the track data common to all tracks in the group.
  • The indexing and display would still work satisfactorily (i.e. send correct and appropriately ordered data to the Control Point) irrespective of whether neither, either or both of the Work and Group fields were populated in a particular file.
    • Thank you for your help with this.

      David
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
23-09-2013, 21:01
Post: #65
RE: Streamlining the browsing tree & multiple configs
Since this is my first post in this forum, I want to express my gratitude to Simon. Minimserver seems to be the best music server solution by far.

(22-09-2013 19:40)simoncn Wrote:  
(22-09-2013 12:54)haggis999 Wrote:  BubbleUPnP on my Android phone works but suffers from a limited information display on the playing now screen, i.e. no composer name or work title. All I get are a non-scrolling track title and artist list, i.e. a pop-oriented display.

This information is displayed when I use BubbleDS on my Nexus 7.

(22-09-2013 20:11)simoncn Wrote:  
(22-09-2013 19:53)haggis999 Wrote:  As its name implies, BubbleDS is aimed at owners of Linn DS products, so I can't use it. Perhaps the playing now interface in BubbleDS differs from that in BubbleUPnP. On the other hand, did you only start to see Composer and Composition after some tweaking of the BubbleDS settings? If so, do you remember what changes you made?

David

I just tried it with BubbleUPnP, and the Now Playing display shows the same information as BubbleDS. This probably means that BubbleUPnP and BubbleDS show more information on a tablet than they do on a phone.

Yes, they do. In BubbleUPnP on a tablet, you can even choose "multiline items" for the now playing screen (settings -> display), which, in landscape mode, will show long album names, titles etc. with line breaks instead of scrolling them. This makes it perfectly suitable for tagFormat. The only issue is that, with very long tagFormat strings (i had some with six lines), the play/pause etc. buttons disappear at the bottom of the display.

Gerald
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
23-09-2013, 21:23
Post: #66
RE: Streamlining the browsing tree & multiple configs
(23-09-2013 12:54)DavidHB Wrote:  This seems clear (and very interesting), and usefully amplifies the 'Groups and Compositions' section of the User Guide. It might be helpful to provide a usage example in that section. Those who, like me, never miss an opportunity to misread a manual will then understand that Group is a specific tag that is so named. I know that the capital letter should have been a clue ...

I will think about a suitable example for the User guide. I don't think the referenced Biber album is the best example to use, because it doesn't reflect normal usage of the Group tag. This example was intended to show that Group can used in other ways than as a synonym for Composition.

Quote:I'd also like to check the implications for my metadata structure. Is the following correct?

Both the 'Work' (aka 'Composition') and 'Group' tags would become standard within the structure, though not necessarily used.

Yes

Quote:Both Work and Group would be need to be in indexTags (the User Guide is silent on this).

Group does not need to be in either indexTags or itemTags, but you can include it in indexTags if you want to have a Group index entry.

Quote:Information in Work would typically not be duplicated in Track. This implies that for both to show up in the track listing on the Control Point, there would need to be a tagFormat entry of something like Track.displayFormat={$work$track$}.

Yes

Quote:Group would not be displayed as such; but would only be used as a substitute for Track when displaying the group name rather than individual track names. The data in Group would typically be either the same as Work or (as in your example) a subset of the track data common to all tracks in the group.

This might need further discussion, as I'm not sure exactly how to interpret some of your comments. For example, Group would be displayed instead of Album in the control point's Now Playing screen. Also, I don't know what you mean by saying the data in Group is a subset of the track data. My example was not intended to show this, and it would not normally be the case. Rather, my example was meant to show that a single Composition could consist of multiple Groups.

Quote:The indexing and display would still work satisfactorily (i.e. send correct and appropriately ordered data to the Control Point) irrespective of whether neither, either or both of the Work and Group fields were populated in a particular file.

Yes
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
23-09-2013, 21:25
Post: #67
RE: Streamlining the browsing tree & multiple configs
(23-09-2013 21:01)Ghieri Wrote:  Since this is my first post in this forum, I want to express my gratitude to Simon. Minimserver seems to be the best music server solution by far.

Thanks very much, and welcome to the MinimServer forum!

Quote:Yes, they do. In BubbleUPnP on a tablet, you can even choose "multiline items" for the now playing screen (settings -> display), which, in landscape mode, will show long album names, titles etc. with line breaks instead of scrolling them. This makes it perfectly suitable for tagFormat. The only issue is that, with very long tagFormat strings (i had some with six lines), the play/pause etc. buttons disappear at the bottom of the display.

Gerald

Thanks for this useful information.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
23-09-2013, 22:38
Post: #68
RE: Streamlining the browsing tree & multiple configs
Thank you. Most of your points clear up my queries, and need no further comment. This leaves only ...

(23-09-2013 21:23)simoncn Wrote:  
DavidHB Wrote:Group would not be displayed as such; but would only be used as a substitute for Track when displaying the group name rather than individual track names. The data in Group would typically be either the same as Work or (as in your example) a subset of the track data common to all tracks in the group.

This might need further discussion, as I'm not sure exactly how to interpret some of your comments. For example, Group would be displayed instead of Album in the control point's Now Playing screen. Also, I don't know what you mean by saying the data in Group is a subset of the track data. My example was not intended to show this, and it would not normally be the case. Rather, my example was meant to show that a single Composition could consist of multiple Groups.

What I was trying to say (perhaps ineptly) was that the data in Group might just be the work name, or it might be a lower-level summary of the contents of the grouped tracks. An example with perhaps more general applicability than your fascinating Biber case (didn't Biber like to make things complicated!) would be an opera, where the work might be 'Porgy and Bess' and the Group names would be 'Porgy and Bess, Act I' etc. This makes a lot of sense if the whole opera is treated as a single album, which is what I like to do.

I note what you say about Group sometimes replacing Album in the displayed data. I assume that this would not be the case in selection lists, as I had taken the statement in the User Guide

"When you display the contents of an album that contains grouped tracks, the group will appear as a single item instead of appearing as separate tracks."

to mean that, more normally, Groups would replace track data in the lists.

David
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
23-09-2013, 23:01
Post: #69
RE: Streamlining the browsing tree & multiple configs
(23-09-2013 22:38)DavidHB Wrote:  What I was trying to say (perhaps ineptly) was that the data in Group might just be the work name, or it might be a lower-level summary of the contents of the grouped tracks. An example with perhaps more general applicability than your fascinating Biber case (didn't Biber like to make things complicated!) would be an opera, where the work might be 'Porgy and Bess' and the Group names would be 'Porgy and Bess, Act I' etc. This makes a lot of sense if the whole opera is treated as a single album, which is what I like to do.

Groups could be used for the acts of an opera. This is similar to the Biber example that I gave (which I don't think is a case of Biber making things over-complicated, but choosing a structure that properly reflects the specific religious context for which this work was composed).

Quote:I note what you say about Group sometimes replacing Album in the displayed data. I assume that this would not be the case in selection lists, as I had taken the statement in the User Guide

"When you display the contents of an album that contains grouped tracks, the group will appear as a single item instead of appearing as separate tracks."

to mean that, more normally, Groups would replace track data in the lists.

Yes, that's correct for item (track) lists within albums and for the <n> items list. In MinimServer, an item is either a track or a group. You should be able to play a group item in the same way as you play a track item, as long as you're not using foobar2000 as your control point. Sad
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
23-09-2013, 23:45
Post: #70
RE: Streamlining the browsing tree & multiple configs
(23-09-2013 23:01)simoncn Wrote:  This is similar to the Biber example that I gave (which I don't think is a case of Biber making things over-complicated, but choosing a structure that properly reflects the specific religious context for which this work was composed).

I didn't say over-complicated! But you can't help thinking about the different scordatura tuning in each section of the Sonatas, or about the polychoral works (which, if memory serves, include a 53 part motet) ...

Quote:You should be able to play a group item in the same way as you play a track item, as long as you're not using foobar2000 as your control point. Sad

Noted Smile My listening life is Kinsky-centric at the moment.

David
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 


Forum Jump:


User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)