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Sound quality of MinimServer
19-09-2024, 11:43
Post: #1
Sound quality of MinimServer
Hello everyone,

I have been comparing the sound from MinimServer/JPlay with that of JRiver/JRemote and Audirvana/Audirvana Remote and was greatly surprised to find MinimServer compromises the quality of sound in my system.

MinimServer's sound lacks bass, and maybe because of it affects the midrange by taking away the presence and warmth in the sound.

I ran both MinimServer and JRiver on the same Asus PN64 mini PC with Intel i7 CPU, 32GB DDR5 RAM and 2TB PCIE NVME M.2 SSD running Linux Mint 21.2. This was sequential, by terminating one server before starting the other. Audirvana was installed on my iMac with 32 GB RAM and i7 cpu running MacOS 11.7.10. The same database of music on an external disk was used in all cases.

I used Jplay on my iPad to control MinimServer and also used it as the control point for JRiver in some of my tests.

My system consists of the SoTM SMS 200 and txUSBultra, Bricasti M1SE DAC, VTL TL5 preamp, Krell 350 MCX mono blocks and Magico S1 speakers. The network is a wired LAN from Asus and iMac to a switch and switch to the sMS200.

All hardware components remained the same when switching between JRiver and MinimServer on the Asus and yet the sound from MinimServer was very underwhelming. The difference was like night and day. MinimServer sounded lifeless. Bass was reduced a lot. It did not present much of the ambient information in the tracks I played, narrowed the soundstage and also made it shallower. There was no "presence" in the music.

One very clear example of missing information is when playing Roger Waters "Amused to Death" Track # 1 - The Ballard of Bill Hubbard where there is the sound of a dog barking on the right. This was almost completely inaudible. I really had to concentrate to even catch a little of it whereas it was loud and clear with the other apps I tried.

Another example is The Eagles "Hell Freezes Over" - Hotel California where the kick drum at the start of the track really sounds full bodied, powerful and there is a reverb that comes from the acoustics of the venue. With MinimServer there was no power and the reverb "minimised".

I tried all kinds of music - classical, jazz, popular, etc, and every single track I played sounded quite anaemic.

In all cases the volume control was set at exactly the same loudness.

Before anyone asks - NO, I do not upsample/downsample and neither do I use any DSP or equaliser, so all the bits coming from JRiver, Audirvana or MinimServer are pure uncontaminated, untouched and yet there is a huge difference in the sound.

I am trying to get to the bottom of this. Can anyone shed some light on this? Bits-are-bits right? Yet MinimServer is not serving all the bits correctly!

Regards.
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19-09-2024, 11:48 (This post was last modified: 19-09-2024 12:15 by stefano_mbp.)
Post: #2
RE: Sound quality of MinimServer
As Minimserver itself doesn’t play (as opposite to JRiver and Audirvana) which player have you used to make this comparison?
… and are you aware that Audirvana (and JRiver, but not sure) used with a UPNP renderer transcode everything to wav32 (by default)?
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19-09-2024, 12:18
Post: #3
RE: Sound quality of MinimServer
(19-09-2024 11:48)stefano_mbp Wrote:  As Minimserver itself doesn’t play (as opposite to JRiver and Audirvana) which player have you used to make this comparison?

Sorry! I do not understand your question.

I think I’m comparing like with like. I’m used both JRiver and MinimServer as a DLNA Server, JPlay as control point, sMS200 as renderer. Everything is virtually exactly the same, just different server app. MinimServer sounded bad?
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19-09-2024, 12:20
Post: #4
RE: Sound quality of MinimServer
Audirvana and JRiver are players while Minimserver is just a server, it doesn’t play anything.
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19-09-2024, 12:49
Post: #5
RE: Sound quality of MinimServer
(19-09-2024 12:18)sng2021 Wrote:  I think I’m comparing like with like. I’m used both JRiver and MinimServer as a DLNA Server, JPlay as control point, sMS200 as renderer. Everything is virtually exactly the same, just different server app. MinimServer sounded bad?

MinimServer doesn't have a sound, as underneath it all it's just a http server hosting the files to be downlaoded and played by the streamer. If your other servers/players sound different then they're modifiying the audio, or you're imagining it.

Does JPlay show you the source of the audio track e.g. http://192...flac? If you were to download the same track served by MinimServer and Jriver they should be an exact copy of your source file.
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19-09-2024, 22:27 (This post was last modified: 22-09-2024 10:53 by simoncn.)
Post: #6
RE: Sound quality of MinimServer
There could be a number of reasons for this sound quality difference. These can be categorised into things that affect the bits received by the renderer and things that don't affect the bits received but can affect the sound.

From what I have read on the Audirvana website, Audirvana does some before sending it to the UPnP renderer (SoTM). I don't use Audirvana and I don't know what manipulations it is doing. Any such manipulations would affect the bits received by the renderer.

Also, you are running Audirvana on a Mac and this can change sound quality because a Mac is likely to produce a different level of electronic noise/jitter (probably lower) transmitted over the Ethernet connection along with the audio signal. This noise/jitter does not change 1 bits to 0 bits or vice versa but can adversely affect the ability of the renderer to prduce optimal sound quality.

It is possible that some manipulation of the audio data might be happening with JRiver depending on what JRiver options are selected in your setup and what file formats (FLAC, ALAC, AIFF, WAV, DSF, M4A, MP3, etc.) you are using for testing. What are the file formats of your test files?

As others have said om this thread, MinimServer performs no processing of audio data by default but delivers exactly what is in the files in disk. This sounds good but actually might not be optimal for sound quality because it pushes all audio processing onto the renderer/player device (SoTM). This is why MinimServer provides the optional MinimStreamer extension to enable server-side transcoding and convolution, which can reduce the load on the renderer device. By not using MinimStreamer, you are limiting the ability of MinimServer to produce the best possible sound.

Also, MinimServer supports a large number of platforms including the most popular NAS brands QNAP and Synology. This is important because it enables you to store your music library on a NAS and run MinimServer on this NAS rather than running Minimserver on a PC which is an electrically noisier device and in your case is reading the music files from an external hard drive using a USB connection. Again, by not taking advantage of how MinimServer can best be used, you are limiting MinimServer's ability to produce the best sound quality.

Edit: The above should not be taken to imply that running MinimServer on a NAS instead of a PC will always improve sound quality. This might depend on other components in the system, as discussed in this thread.

I hope this helps to provide a broader perspective on how optimal sound quality can be achieved in a MinmimServer-based system.
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20-09-2024, 00:26
Post: #7
RE: Sound quality of MinimServer
Stefano, I use JRiver and MinimServer as purely uPNP servers. JRiver can do everything if connected directly to a USB DAC but I don't use it in that mode. I assumed the data stream in all cases of uPNP servers would be exactly the same, but in my experiment the difference is between night and day!

@simbun, No I am not imagining it. Like I said an obvious example is I cannot hear the barking of a dog in Roger Waters "Amused to Death" whereas it is loud and clear with the other servers. They are the exact same tracks when I use different servers because I only connect to an external drive which contains all my music (there are no other copies).

@simoncn, I used Audirvana as a test as I was not convinced that there can be such a huge difference between JRiver and MinimServer. Yet Audirvana (on my iMac) & JRiver (on the same Asus mini PC as MinimServer) sounded similar whereas MinimServer sounded anaemic. The difference in sound cannot be attributed to jitter which is much more subtle. There certainly is the possibility that JRiver & Audirvana both manipulate the sound in some way that I am not privy to, but if this is the case, there would have been a huge outcry from all the users out there. I have not come across any in all the forums I've read. I also made sure that my own setup is delivering the data untouched by any DSP or equaliser (I don't use any anyway as I rely on proper speaker setup for my room's acoustics). Everything else (hardware and network) is exactly the same. I ran the listening tests on FLAC, WAV & DSF files all with various sampling rates.

I began trying out MinimServer as I also believed that any server would simply present the data to the renderer untouched after all they are just bits in a well timed data stream. This has not turned out to be the case. It is a mystery.

I thought I had better ask all of you if there is something that I have missed. I have a full licence for MinimServer but I do not want to go down the path of transcoding etc with MinimStreamer. That introduces more variables than I can understand or control. I know MinimStreamer has a large following including manufacturers like Melco & dCS who recommend it, which is one reason why I wanted to try it out.

Any suggestions on what can be the cause? Has anyone else had good or bad experiences using these products? Any fixes?
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20-09-2024, 13:03 (This post was last modified: 20-09-2024 13:04 by simbun.)
Post: #8
RE: Sound quality of MinimServer
(20-09-2024 00:26)sng2021 Wrote:  @simbun, No I am not imagining it. Like I said an obvious example is I cannot hear the barking of a dog in Roger Waters "Amused to Death" whereas it is loud and clear with the other servers. They are the exact same tracks when I use different servers because I only connect to an external drive which contains all my music (there are no other copies).

I installed Jriver and configured its DLNA profile to Original Format and let it index a few files.
I then pulled the same track from Jriver and MinimServer and analyzed the files (see attachment).

md5sum was used to generate a digital fingerprint of the target files, and all three were calculated as "73a7679b7197d93268a52489546f2eee" so we can be sure the audio content was the same.

I know nothing about http transfer methods but that is where we do see some discrepancy (at least to the layman), but if that's impacting the audio reproduction then I think it's more a problem with the renderer than the server.

I'd suggest you:
  • Calculate the MD5 of both streams from Jriver and MinimServer to verify your settings
  • Try using mconnect instead of JPlay to rule out JPlay
  • Clip the barking dog and share it with us to try


Attached File(s)
.txt  Analysis.txt (Size: 2.32 KB / Downloads: 4)
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21-09-2024, 00:14
Post: #9
RE: Sound quality of MinimServer
(20-09-2024 13:03)simbun Wrote:  
(20-09-2024 00:26)sng2021 Wrote:  @simbun, No I am not imagining it. Like I said an obvious example is I cannot hear the barking of a dog in Roger Waters "Amused to Death" whereas it is loud and clear with the other servers. They are the exact same tracks when I use different servers because I only connect to an external drive which contains all my music (there are no other copies).

I installed Jriver and configured its DLNA profile to Original Format and let it index a few files.
I then pulled the same track from Jriver and MinimServer and analyzed the files (see attachment).

md5sum was used to generate a digital fingerprint of the target files, and all three were calculated as "73a7679b7197d93268a52489546f2eee" so we can be sure the audio content was the same.

I know nothing about http transfer methods but that is where we do see some discrepancy (at least to the layman), but if that's impacting the audio reproduction then I think it's more a problem with the renderer than the server.

I'd suggest you:
  • Calculate the MD5 of both streams from Jriver and MinimServer to verify your settings
  • Try using mconnect instead of JPlay to rule out JPlay
  • Clip the barking dog and share it with us to try

@simbun, thanks for spending time to work on this. How do you find the URL for a particular track in JRiver. I tried using what I think should be the correct volume, folder & filename but curl tells me it cannot find the file. Does JRiver use its own FileID?

I have not tried with MinimServer. I hope I don't run into the same problem.
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21-09-2024, 05:29
Post: #10
RE: Sound quality of MinimServer
(21-09-2024 00:14)sng2021 Wrote:  
(20-09-2024 13:03)simbun Wrote:  
(20-09-2024 00:26)sng2021 Wrote:  @simbun, No I am not imagining it. Like I said an obvious example is I cannot hear the barking of a dog in Roger Waters "Amused to Death" whereas it is loud and clear with the other servers. They are the exact same tracks when I use different servers because I only connect to an external drive which contains all my music (there are no other copies).

I installed Jriver and configured its DLNA profile to Original Format and let it index a few files.
I then pulled the same track from Jriver and MinimServer and analyzed the files (see attachment).

md5sum was used to generate a digital fingerprint of the target files, and all three were calculated as "73a7679b7197d93268a52489546f2eee" so we can be sure the audio content was the same.

I know nothing about http transfer methods but that is where we do see some discrepancy (at least to the layman), but if that's impacting the audio reproduction then I think it's more a problem with the renderer than the server.

I'd suggest you:
  • Calculate the MD5 of both streams from Jriver and MinimServer to verify your settings
  • Try using mconnect instead of JPlay to rule out JPlay
  • Clip the barking dog and share it with us to try

@simbun, thanks for spending time to work on this. How do you find the URL for a particular track in JRiver. I tried using what I think should be the correct volume, folder & filename but curl tells me it cannot find the file. Does JRiver use its own FileID?

I have not tried with MinimServer. I hope I don't run into the same problem.

I was able to find the url for MinimServer but still trying to work out the correct url for JRiver. Seems to me it converts everything to an internal ID but I cannot retrieve the ID for a particular file.
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