Restriction of BBC Radio HLS/DASH to authorised third parties

[MDF]

As I understand it the id in brackets tells the stream to go via minimstreamer not directly to the streamer. That may explain why one plays and one does not. If you add a + before the stream name in brackets it will create 2 entries, one plays via minimstreamer and one directly, that might be a way to test it. There must be a reason why minimstreamer does not like the entry with brackets that is not playing, maybe you need to specify type and samplerate for your streamer to play ball.That would be a question for someone who knows more about the detail of configuring minimstreamer than I do. I have found the user guide very helpful at https://minimstreamer.com/userguide.html.

My entry that plays is;
#EXTINF:-1,[R3;aac,48000] BBC Radio 3
http://a.files.bbci.co.uk/media/live/man...three.m3u8

[simoncn]

I have (just now) tried playing these BBC streams with and without [R3] etc. using my Linn DS and they all work with both types of playlist entry. For this test, I used entries of the form [R3] rather than [R3;aac,48000] to exactly match what the OP was doing.

[MDF]

Glad its working ok now.

[simoncn]

As this is (or will soon become) a rapidly changing situation, I think it would be helpful for me to post periodic updates on the current status to the best of my knowledge.

The BBC has announced that the current HLS and DASH streams will be replaced with new authenticated streams but at present the unauthenticated streams are still working. There was a glitch around 29/30 September but this seems to have been fixed now.

Many MinimServer/MinimStreamer users are playing the BBC streams using a .m3u playlist file that contains URLs for the current unauthenticated streams. When the BBC blocks access to these streams, BBC radio will no longer be available from MinimStreamer using a .m3u playlist unless something changes on the MinimStreamer side. I have requested access to the new authenticated streams from the BBC but the BBC has refused this request.

To ensure that MinimStreamer users do not lose access to BBC streams, I am working with a third party that has been approved by the BBC to have access to the new authenticated streams. I am testing a MinimStreamer update that will transparently switch to the new streams when a user requests the old streams using a MinimStreamer .m3u playlist. Thie means that MinimStreamer users will not need to change anything in their current setup, just install the latest update to MinimStreamer. In the longer term, I would like to provide access to the BBC streams in a different way that does not require the user to create and/or edit a .m3u playlist containing stream URLs.

This update is almost ready to be released but there are still a few issues to be resolved and I am working through these issues. If the old streams suddenly stop working, I will release the update immediately. If the old streams continue to work for a bit longer, I will complete my testing of the update and then release it for user testing.

If anyone finds that any of the old streams has stopped working for them, please post here with the details so that I can take appropriate action.

[Stream64]

Your effort on this is much appreciated Simon. As of tonight the unauthenticated streams are still working, despite the BBCs comments on their 'help' pages that they have 'changed' their streams.
Maybe I was misinterpreting what they meant - i.e. when they say they have implemented a change they mean that they have started a new authenticated stream rather than ceased an unauthenticated stream.
So I guess they still intend cease all the unauthenticated streams as soon as they have confirmation from their 'approved' users that they have successfully migrated.

[simoncn]

(05-10-2023 00:24)Stream64 Wrote:  So I guess they still intend cease all the unauthenticated streams as soon as they have confirmation from their 'approved' users that they have successfully migrated.

I think this is likely to be the situation. I would hope that the BBC will announce a date for withdrawal of the old streams before this happens but I am prepared for the possibility that they might just stop working.

[tommyrot]

Thank you, Simon. I look forward to this update.

Did the BBC expand on their reasons for refusing your request for authorised streams? I presume that you made a reasonable offer to fulfil their (unquenchable) thirst for listening data. For a while, I thought the BBC wanted to authenticate individual listeners via BBC account data, but that cannot be the case because NAIM have migrated to the BBC's authorised streams and my MuSo streams just work without me providing any login info. So, it's really about validating the streaming entities.

As for piggy-backing authorised streams from a 3rd party, I'm uneasy about this because I suspect the BBC will just clamp down on it. Which would put us all back to square one. Sorry to sound bleak – it's more a comment on the Tzarist executives at the BBC Sounds unit than anything else.

**Update**: A notice on the NAIM forum (in July) on this topic provides the following info:

"The streams require a rolling token to get access, that require server side logic to implement this dynamic token generation."

"No data is shared. The token/login is there to ensure BBC streams are represented on the 3rd party platforms to the BBC distribution rights docs. That means correct logos and names, prominent position, not injecting adverts or non BBC material etc.

In practice it will give a better end user experience, as will minimise third parties making a mess of things."

"The HLS feeds will require a distribution licence agreement signed between either the radio database company (vtuner, airable, etc) or the equipment manufacturer. A dynamically generated secure token will then be needed to access the streams."

Notwithstanding NAIM's technical teams, the technicalities of this sound like something Simon could implement in his sleep, so I don't understand why it wasn't possible to agree terms with the BBC.

[simoncn]

In their refusal to work with me to provide a solution for MinimStreamer users, the BBC just quoted paragraph c) from this page. They did not explain why enabling MinimStreamer to access the new streams would allow the streams to be used in non-compliant ways.

I am proceeding on the assumption that the third party making the new streams available for use by MinimStreamer is acting within the terms of their agreement with the BBC, whatever those terms may be. If this turns out not to be the case, I will handle this situation when it arises.

[Stream64]

Probably don't want to get into a debate on their justification because of the risk of the cans of worms it would open up for them. Easier just to shut down the conversation by pointing to a vaguely worded paragraph on a website.

[tommyrot]

So, my reading of that clause is that the BBC don't want solutions which rely on end-users adding the raw streams to their streamers/players. OK. Then it follows that intermediaries (like Naim / Linn / MinimStreamer etc.) provision the streams on the backend and provide a front-end where users simply play BBC stations without fiddling with streams. So, post-authorisation, Naim have updated their BBC HLS streams and my preset stations have continued as before without my needing to make changes.

Hmm... I'm picturing how that might work via Minimstreamer to my Linn DS. Simon, I wonder if you could provide an end point that maps BBC streams to URLs hosted on Minimserver so we could add those minimserver URLs to our local .m3u files and never need to care about the underlying streams. Example below.

an example .m3u on a local NAS
#EXTM3U
#EXTINF:-1,BBC Radio 3 320k
https://some-subdomain.minimserver.com/m...bbc/r3320k


on some-subdomain.minimserver.com
#EXTM3U
#EXTINF:-1,BBC Radio 3 320k
http://a.files.bbci.co.uk/media/live/man...three.m3u8


You could even bake these into MinimStreamer, so users don't even have to create .m3u files at all. They could just browse the MinimServer tree and save/bookmark/pin them as radio stations.

If this kind of approach meets the criteria, is it worth approaching the BBC again?