Group display

[simbun]

Hi @simoncn,

I was just wondering if there's any chance of modifying the way GROUP currently works, as treating it as musicAlbum is a little jarring when it does work (tested BubbleUPnP and Hi-Fi Cast, although in BubbleUPnP the tracks in the GROUP aren't counted towards the album total) and in other apps like Lumin it causes them to be treated as separate albums (unless I'm missing a config option).

I know BubbleUPnP supports inline separators used for WORK metadata on Qobuz which makes it look something like this:
   

I understand that the ideal solution would be one that works for all control points (which is probably what you've settled on), but that seems to be resulting in a sub par experience for all.
I understand if you don't want to have to handle this all at runtime (identifying the control point and customising the response), so maybe a similar option to upnpCustom where it would be set once (per profile)?

[simoncn]

The current approach (musicAlbum contained within musicAlbum) complies with the UPnP specification. Most control points handle this correctly. Some (such as Linn Kinsky) show a correct item count for the album (an item is a track or group). Any control point that doesn't handle this correctly is not compliant with the UPnP specification.

I am not clear about what you are proposing. What exactly are "inline separators used for WORK metadata on Qobuz"?

[paultaylor]

I think that parts makes sense.

However, would be good if Group could be viewed directly under a Composer index or another index, like albums or items. As it is you have to seperately define a Works index to see works underneath another index, and because Work Index is not a special container like albums or items only very basic information is returned.

So my question would be is it possible/logical for group to be used to create a groups container (like albums) that could be returned for other containers, and it would return the artist role info like album. This would also then mean that a Works index would no longer be necessary.

[simbun]

(22-06-2022 10:16)simoncn Wrote:  I am not clear about what you are proposing. What exactly are "inline separators used for WORK metadata on Qobuz"?

I was reporting on the BubbleUPnP forum that track counts were incorrect when using disc subtitles - which turned out to be because I was using 'showExtras=false' turning the disc subtitle into a track - at which point I mentioned that track counts were also incorrect with GROUPs. He replied

Quote:For groups, there is no problem because groups are sent as folders by MinimServer.

Interestingly, BubbleUPnP has its own convention to specify "Work" (used for classical music) and display them as delimiters. It is only used for displaying Qobuz albums which have "Work" metadata. It looks like screenshot below. I wished MinimServer had the option to send groups/discsubtitle as inline separators like these resulting in a flat album listing (rather than subfolders), maybe I'll speak Simon about it.

I don't know what MinimServer would have to do to achieve what bubbleguuum is proposing, I guess it's either that tracks within a group would be contained by some object that BubbleUPnP understood, or it could just be an additional object that you sent through before the group.

Having written it down I can see why you wouldn't want to go down this route :-)
I had initially hoped that it might just be changing the object type from one to another, but it looks like the tracks aren't sent through with the album listing, just the container/group that contains them.

[simoncn]

(22-06-2022 11:24)paultaylor Wrote:  However, would be good if Group could be viewed directly under a Composer index or another index, like albums or items. As it is you have to seperately define a Works index to see works underneath another index, and because Work Index is not a special container like albums or items only very basic information is returned.

So my question would be is it possible/logical for group to be used to create a groups container (like albums) that could be returned for other containers, and it would return the artist role info like album. This would also then mean that a Works index would no longer be necessary.

Group is not the same as Work. A Group is any set of consecutive tracks that the user wants to appear as a single item when browsing, with a simple way to select and play all tracks. A Work can be a Group (Beethoven's 5th Symphony, etc.) or a single track (Beethoven's Egmont Overture. etc.) A Work can contain multiple Groups (Biber's Mystery Sonatas, an opera with multiple acts, etc.) Many Groups are Works and many Works are Groups but having an index for Groups would not remove the need for an index for Works.

The "n items" index returns a list of groups and ungrouped tracks. Artist role information is returned for everything in this list. I don't think a separate list of groups (the same as the items list but excluding ungrouped tracks) is needed.

[simoncn]

I have been in touch with bubbleguuum to clarify what inline separators are. They use a naming convention that is specific to BubbleUPnP. They use the UPnP container object type but they are not really containers because they have no contents. Instead, they are interpreted by BubbleUPnP as text items that appear in a list. Unlike a group container wihch can be selected and played as a single item, an inline separator provides no such capability. I don't think these are a suitable substitute for MinimServer groups.

[paultaylor]

(23-06-2022 17:02)simoncn Wrote:  The "n items" index returns a list of groups and ungrouped tracks.

Ah I hadn't realized that, okay thanks that is helpful.

[simbun]

(23-06-2022 17:12)simoncn Wrote:  I have been in touch with bubbleguuum to clarify what inline separators are. They use a naming convention that is specific to BubbleUPnP. They use the UPnP container object type but they are not really containers because they have no contents. Instead, they are interpreted by BubbleUPnP as text items that appear in a list. Unlike a group container wihch can be selected and played as a single item, an inline separator provides no such capability. I don't think these are a suitable substitute for MinimServer groups.

It's a shame because for my purposes I'd rather have the ability to see all of an albums songs at once (and with nice formatting) as opposed to the ability of being able to select them in one go.
I guess it'd be relatively trivial for bubbleguuum to turn it into a proper container, but then he's got soo much else going on that it just won't be one of his priorities, that's why we need to see MinimControl next ;-)

Thanks Simon

[simoncn]

If you want to see all these tracks inline and you don't need to select them all in one go, why are you tagging them as a Group?

[vermeulen]

Although the appearance of the groups can be perfectly explained, I don’t really like it.
For instance the 24 Preludes and Fugues of Shostakovich are now shown as 24 subalbums within the album.
I tagged the album using SongKong and could set it to skip the group tag.
Before I do that I want to make sure if there are any MinimServer preferences to change the current behaviour?