Minimserver compatible replacement for two Sonos Play 5s.

[mightyoakbob]

(03-01-2022 22:25)simbun Wrote:  Could you post one or two of your problem playlist definitions?

Yes, I'll do that tomorrow, I need to do more testing to prove best I can what effect the settings have especially since Simon has told me about [;aac].

[mightyoakbob]

(03-01-2022 22:30)simoncn Wrote:  You don't need [id] if you only want to set the stream type. For example, you can use [;aac] and the stream will not go through MinimStreamer.

Thank you for that, more testing to do....

[mightyoakbob]

(03-01-2022 23:02)mightyoakbob Wrote:  

(03-01-2022 22:30)simoncn Wrote:  You don't need [id] if you only want to set the stream type. For example, you can use [;aac] and the stream will not go through MinimStreamer.

Thank you for that, more testing to do....

I have spent some hours this morning testing and have results.

I think it best to list kit at this point so I'm using a Sonos Play 5 speaker, a Denon Ceol RCD N9 and a Linn Akurate Catalyst. Software is running on a Synology DS214+ and is Mininserver (latest V2), BubbleUPnP server, FFmpeg.
I use two control point apps on my iPad Kazoo and Lumin. I much prefer Lumin.

Yesterday I created a playlist with lots of radio stations listed on it but found that the Denon wasn't fussy and would would work for every stream tested and for both Kazoo and Lumin. The Sonos however was fussy and many stations would play for the Kazoo app but not Lumin.

I then remembered reading something about this in the Minim Streamer notes and tried using a title prefix eg. [ClassicFM1,mp3]. At first this appeared to fix everthing and Lumin could start any stream on both Denon and Lumin.

Then in the evening I discovered that streams would stop at around 12.5 minutes of playing. Today I've been trying to tie down the cause.

I concentrated on just one stream which seemed typical of all issues.
#EXTINF:-1, Classic FM
http://media-ice.musicradio.com/ClassicFMMP3

Linn Kazoo is able to start this playing on both Sonos and Denon but Lumin couldn't. It could though pause and restart the stream if it had been started by Kazoo.

I tried adding the prefix..
#EXTINF:-1, [ClassicFM1;mp3] Classic FM
http://media-ice.musicradio.com/ClassicFMMP3

Now both control points could start the stream on both players but the stream stops playing after around 12 minutes. It stops for both players and it doesn't matter which control point started the stream. I then saw Simon's information about [;mp3] and tried that.

#EXTINF:-1, [;mp3] Classic FM
http://media-ice.musicradio.com/ClassicFMMP3
This no longer times out and can be started from Lumin and kazoo and for Sonos and Denon.

For reasons I don't begin to understand it seems that a stream going via my Minimstreamer doesn't play for long. Fortunately, I don't seem to need it at the moment.

Thanks for your help everyone.

More than happy to do more testing if someone wants something tested.


Bob.

[simbun]

(15-12-2021 17:42)simoncn Wrote:  Using MinimStreamer to downsample hi-res to low-res doesn't seem like a great option (in 2021). I am interested in hearing more about the HEOS (now Denon Home). Any comments from someone with experience of using these?

I've just managed to borrow a Denon HEOS 150 to see if it'll be a good replacement for a few Sonos Play 1's I have around the house, but so far it's not great.

It's largely what has been said before on the forum, but I'll cover eveything off here. For this I'm using the HEOS app v2.41.140 build 189801 on Android.

After selecting MinimServer you're taken to an index consisting of 'Search, Browse Folders, Arists, Albums, Genres, Tracks'.

Given I don't have Artist in my MinimServer config, the Denon appears to be performing a UPnP seach to get the results, which for Genre returns nothing.
'Artists' appears to display AlbumArtist and track Artist in alphabetical order (I do have a sorting associated with AlbumArtist but don't use Artist, so a generic display and sort is probably expected).
'Albums' is sorting correctly by AlbumArtistSort as well as displaying the proper Album.displayFormat
'Tracks' appears to show everything correctly.

Browse Folders is, as has been discussed before where we can access the proper MinimServer hierarchy.
Interestingly, the AssetUPnP browse tree is shown here on drilling through 'Browse Folders' but in MinimServer I had to add an additional folder in the root of my content directory called 'EXTRA_FOLDER_FOR_MINIMTAGVIEW', and then drill through:
'Browse Folders -> EXTRA_FOLDER.... -> >> Tag View -> EXTRA_FOLDER.... -> hierarchy tree.

Radio Playlists fail with 'An unknown error occurred (error code -23). Please try again'; local files through a playlist are fine.

At this point everything seems to be ok except there's no artwork other than album artwork.

There appears to be a bug in the app as it doesn't show Track Artist, except it tries to for Various Artist albums, but it just shows 'Various Artists' again! This is the case for Asset & Plex too, so nothing MinimServer specific.

Other than that, the app is a bit flaky for setup and firmware updates (both needed a phone reboot as I lost connection to the speaker), and the Denon 150 doesn't support seeking, having tried with FLAC nor does it support OGG vorbis.

Given I've only borrowed a single unit, I won't be able to tell if I can set up zones/a stereo pair in the HEOS app and play to them through another control point, but as a single unit it operates fine through BubbleUPnP as do the radio stations that are being transcoded with MinimStreamer.

It appears to support gapless playback, although without being able to seek it's a pain to test; maybe I'll break a track up later to test with properly.

Yet to actually listen to it properly :-)

If there's any logging you want from the Genre search or anything else just let me know.


EDIT: Just used audacity to break a track up into 10 second segments and it is gapless, at least for flac.

[mightyoakbob]

That's a shame, I was hoping things had improved with the Denon apps since I purchased my RCD N9 some years ago. I quickly found that I preferred using BubbleUPnP Server on my Synology NAS and Linn or Lumin apps and still do.

Using the above I have links to all of the streaming radio services that I want and they work fine without Minim streamer.

Incidentally, I've also tried out ffmpeg so that my Sonos play5 boxes can play hi-res audio or at least appear to but I've found that many older Synology NAS boxes allow you to install ffmpeg but it doesn't work, nothing plays. My best guess as to why is that all NAS that work have a FPU and all the ones that don't, don't. Not conclusive, the exception may be there but I've not seen it. The oldest NAS that I found that works is the DS114 and I suspect anything ending 14 or later will work because they all have an FPU. But I could be wrong.

Bob.

[simoncn]

Thanks very much for this.

What happens if you don't have the folder EXTRA_FOLDER_FOR_MINIMTAGVIEW as your MinimServer content directory?

[simbun]

(04-03-2022 22:07)simoncn Wrote:  Thanks very much for this.

What happens if you don't have the folder EXTRA_FOLDER_FOR_MINIMTAGVIEW as your MinimServer content directory?

Drilling into 'Browse Folders' takes you straight into the root of your content directory, but '>> Tag View' is only available at the next level, so depending on your folder layout you could be missing some of your collection e.g. If you had to drill into ./cdda to see '>> Tag View' you'd be missing ./lossy, ./hires from the MinimServer indexes.

[simbun]

(04-03-2022 20:29)mightyoakbob Wrote:  That's a shame, I was hoping things had improved with the Denon apps since I purchased my RCD N9 some years ago. I quickly found that I preferred using BubbleUPnP Server on my Synology NAS and Linn or Lumin apps and still do.

Fortunately my expectations for the control point (at least for local media) were incredibly low, so it's not come as any surprise. I don't think there's a system out there that can come anywhere near MinimServer/UPnP, so why they didn't just throw a load of money at @simoncn and @bubbleguuum and be done with it I don't know, even if they did have to change the underlying delivery protocol.
Anyway, I'll be listening and comparing it to the Sonos over the weekend, and if I can be assured that I can stereo pair/group them whilst using BubbleUPnP (control point) to control them then it's still a win over Sonos.

(04-03-2022 20:29)mightyoakbob Wrote:  Incidentally, I've also tried out ffmpeg so that my Sonos play5 boxes can play hi-res audio or at least appear to but I've found that many older Synology NAS boxes allow you to install ffmpeg but it doesn't work, nothing plays. My best guess as to why is that all NAS that work have a FPU and all the ones that don't, don't. Not conclusive, the exception may be there but I've not seen it. The oldest NAS that I found that works is the DS114 and I suspect anything ending 14 or later will work because they all have an FPU. But I could be wrong.

Assuming you mean ffmpeg through BubbleUPnP server, I've been running it and MinimServer on a Pi 3 for years and it's been faultless; worst case spend ~£75 on a Pi4 (if you can get hold of one) and stick BubbleUPnP server on that to do openhome and transcoding :-)

[simoncn]

(04-03-2022 23:12)simbun Wrote:  Drilling into 'Browse Folders' takes you straight into the root of your content directory, but '>> Tag View' is only available at the next level, so depending on your folder layout you could be missing some of your collection e.g. If you had to drill into ./cdda to see '>> Tag View' you'd be missing ./lossy, ./hires from the MinimServer indexes.

Thanks for this. I would like to see a debug log of what is happening (test 1). I would also like to see a debug log of the browse request that shows an empty Genre folder (test 2). Please do the following:

1) In the log window, change the logging level to Debug
2) In the log window, select Clear
3) Run the test (test 1 or test 2, each as a separate test with its own log)
4) In the log window, select 'Save as' to save a log file
5) Zip or compress the log file to save space

Please post the two log files here. Many thanks.

[mightyoakbob]

(04-03-2022 23:34)simbun Wrote:  Fortunately my expectations for the control point (at least for local media) were incredibly low, so it's not come as any surprise. I don't think there's a system out there that can come anywhere near MinimServer/UPnP, so why they didn't just throw a load of money at @simoncn and @bubbleguuum and be done with it I don't know, even if they did have to change the underlying delivery protocol.

Yes, I get that and fully concur.

(04-03-2022 23:34)simbun Wrote:  Anyway, I'll be listening and comparing it to the Sonos over the weekend, and if I can be assured that I can stereo pair/group them whilst using BubbleUPnP (control point) to control them then it's still a win over Sonos.

Slightly surprised you don't like the idea of a minisystem and prefer two stand alone wireless speakers. A minisystem gives you optical and analogue inputs and your choice of speakers. I suppose it depends on intended usage.

(04-03-2022 23:34)simbun Wrote:  Assuming you mean ffmpeg through BubbleUPnP server, I've been running it and MinimServer on a Pi 3 for years and it's been faultless; worst case spend ~£75 on a Pi4 (if you can get hold of one) and stick BubbleUPnP server on that to do openhome and transcoding :-)

Indeed. I only realised you could run it on a Pi a couple of months ago. I built it and it worked whilst using minimserver running on a NAS to supply the music. Quite remarkable to watch. Not playing inverted top trumps here but I first tried it on a Pi4 and then tried an old pi2 model B. Yes a Pi 2 £25 and it worked fine on that too. I do believe those pi versions all have fpu so my theory of it being essential for ffmpeg transcoding is still alive.
Just for completeness, I'll add that ffmpeg transcoding does not work (or at least I couldn't get it to work) on an DS213 or a DS111 which you'll not be surprised to hear, do not have fpu.

Bob.