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Indexes and Groups query - [Solved]
29-11-2015, 23:44
Post: #11
RE: Indexes and Groups query - [Solved]
I've added a new final paragraph to this section.
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30-11-2015, 09:42
Post: #12
RE: Indexes and Groups query - [Solved]
(29-11-2015 23:44)simoncn Wrote:  I've added a new final paragraph to this section.
Excellent - thanks. You might want to add a negative statement to the guides for other operating systems.
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30-11-2015, 10:30
Post: #13
RE: Indexes and Groups query - [Solved]
(30-11-2015 09:42)Pastim Wrote:  Excellent - thanks. You might want to add a negative statement to the guides for other operating systems.

I'm not particularly keen on making negative statements in user documentation about what MinimServer can't do. The list might get quite long. Smile
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30-11-2015, 10:59
Post: #14
RE: Indexes and Groups query - [Solved]
Hi,

After hearing from Tim about this issue (the question was to know if the upplay control point could do something about it), I don't quite see an easy way to solve the problem from the CP.

I had the same kind of problem previously when looking for the right approach to adding all tracks from a subtree. The MinimServer tree is quite hard to recursively walk, it is mostly designed for humans (this is not a criticism).

At the time Simon suggested using the search feature, which is what upplay now does.

I wondered if the same approach could be used, but as I understand it, the search criteria are currently limited to a small set (not including "rating").

How hard would it be for MinimServer to accept arbitrary tags for selection (performance be damned) ? I have no idea how the database is implemented, so I expect that the answer could lie anywhere between "trivial" and "impossible".

jf
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30-11-2015, 11:05
Post: #15
RE: Indexes and Groups query - [Solved]
(30-11-2015 10:30)simoncn Wrote:  
(30-11-2015 09:42)Pastim Wrote:  Excellent - thanks. You might want to add a negative statement to the guides for other operating systems.

I'm not particularly keen on making negative statements in user documentation about what MinimServer can't do. The list might get quite long. Smile
Fair enough. I just thought others might come across similar types of problem and go round in a few circles looking for a way to do it only to discover it isn't possible.
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30-11-2015, 11:53
Post: #16
RE: Indexes and Groups query - [Solved]
(30-11-2015 10:59)medoc92 Wrote:  Hi,

After hearing from Tim about this issue (the question was to know if the upplay control point could do something about it), I don't quite see an easy way to solve the problem from the CP.

I had the same kind of problem previously when looking for the right approach to adding all tracks from a subtree. The MinimServer tree is quite hard to recursively walk, it is mostly designed for humans (this is not a criticism).

At the time Simon suggested using the search feature, which is what upplay now does.

I wondered if the same approach could be used, but as I understand it, the search criteria are currently limited to a small set (not including "rating").

How hard would it be for MinimServer to accept arbitrary tags for selection (performance be damned) ? I have no idea how the database is implemented, so I expect that the answer could lie anywhere between "trivial" and "impossible".

jf

It should be possible in theory to extend MinimServer's UPnP Search support to include any properties that appear in the DIDL-Lite metadata that MinimServer is sending to the control point. For information that isn't sent to the control point as DIDL-Lite properties (i.e., used only to create MinimServer browsing indexes), I think it would be too much of a stretch to try to fit this into UPnP Search semantics. At present, "rating" falls into the latter category because MinimServer doesn't send it to the control point as a DIDL-Lite property. There is a upnp:rating property but this applies only to video items and images and has a different meaning.

From a practical perspective, I don't plan to support searching on all DIDL-Lite properties because this would be a lot of work and no control point would be able to take advantage of it. I am open to the possibility of making limited enhancements to the current capabilities if these enhancements are valuable for users and likely to be exploited by control points.

Another relevant point is that MinimServer's implementation of UPnP Search examines the tags of the group as a whole and not the tags of individual items within the group. This would cause a rating search to return the complete group, which isn't what the OP wants.
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30-11-2015, 12:37
Post: #17
RE: Indexes and Groups query - [Solved]
No cigar for the "search" approach then, the "Group as Item" issue is a killer.
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30-11-2015, 13:20
Post: #18
RE: Indexes and Groups query - [Solved]
(30-11-2015 12:37)medoc92 Wrote:  No cigar for the "search" approach then, the "Group as Item" issue is a killer.
I just have to have a 2nd minimserver configured without Groups to get most of what I want without an enhanced search.

Never mind, the combination of minimserver and upplay is still far better than anything else I've found, except LMS (with an LMS-to-UPnP plugin) which has it's own pros and cons.
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30-11-2015, 14:17
Post: #19
RE: Indexes and Groups query - [Solved]
(30-11-2015 13:20)Pastim Wrote:  I just have to have a 2nd minimserver configured without Groups to get most of what I want without an enhanced search.

Never mind, the combination of minimserver and upplay is still far better than anything else I've found, except LMS (with an LMS-to-UPnP plugin) which has it's own pros and cons.

Can you say more about the pros and cons of LMS with an LMS-to-UPnP plugin?
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30-11-2015, 14:53
Post: #20
RE: Indexes and Groups query - [Solved]
(30-11-2015 14:17)simoncn Wrote:  
(30-11-2015 13:20)Pastim Wrote:  I just have to have a 2nd minimserver configured without Groups to get most of what I want without an enhanced search.

Never mind, the combination of minimserver and upplay is still far better than anything else I've found, except LMS (with an LMS-to-UPnP plugin) which has it's own pros and cons.

Can you say more about the pros and cons of LMS with an LMS-to-UPnP plugin?
LMS is a big and complex beast (with any player). To make best use of it you need several 'plugins'. Over the last several years I've got to the point where I have many customised menus (using 'custom browse' and 'custom scan' plugins), one of which is not unlike your indextag menu. I also have menus based on my own sql queries, modified from examples given by the plugin creator. I based all my tagging on advice from LMS users, and then extended it for minimserver (using Groups, and an alternate AlbumArtist tag).

There are also many controller add-ons such as iPeng, plus server support for Qobuz, Tidal, etc......, and 'On Demand' BBC iPlayer. LMS also supports many codecs and provides for quite a lot of transcoding features - although maybe not quite as flexible as minimstreamer (but again one can write scripts to do whatever you want in LMS).

In addition, using Logitech players one can synchronise multiple players, crossfade and so on.

So the main generic 'pro' is flexibility with a supportive user base on the forum. One can probably do almost anything with LMS if you try hard enough.

Adding the LMS-to-UPnP bridge plugin I can use almost all LMS features except synchronisation and crossfade (I never used the latter anyway). There's still some development going on with this plugin, but in the main it's very good and I use it a lot. I can even do one or two things that upplay can't do, repositioning in a track when one of my players doesn't really support that, and there are things I use that minimserver doesn't do, such as support 'On Demand' BBC iPlayer. I can also play random tracks over a range of 'Rating' tags because I wrote a menu item to do just that. upplay's 'Random Groups' is nbow equivalent to my LMS 'Random Works' menu.

Finally, I probably still prefer the look of the standard LMS web GUI controller to any CP I have yet found, but that's fairly superficial.

Some cons with LMS are that it's got complex over the years, and some plugins are becoming unsupported as developers move on. The most irritating aspects are that it can be rather slow at times, and re-scanning the tracks takes 20 minutes on my system for a basic re-scan. To re-scan to get custom tags (using custom-scan) takes another 2 hours, so an overnight task. That's an irritation especially compared to minimserver, which is very quick in almost all aspects, and with upplay has a nice, simple and extremely usable interface.

I suspect the LMS-to-UPnP bridge doesn't support as wide a range of players as minimserver, but when people say they have difficulties with some new player it usually gets fixed pretty quickly if the internal configuration can't be tweaked enough.

I've put a lot more work into LMS that I ever needed to with minimserver, so have a tendency to use that first, but I am more and more often going straight to minimserver/upplay as a quick way of doing almost everything I want to do. Simplicity is (as I think you have said more than once ) a major virtue.

Apologies for the ramble - I should have sat down and written something offline first, with bullets/numbered items.... If you've specific questions please ask.
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