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Educate me on FLAC choices when streaming
24-02-2015, 02:58 (This post was last modified: 24-02-2015 02:58 by ted_b.)
Post: #1
Educate me on FLAC choices when streaming
Simon,
I am currently using Minimserver/Minimstreamer for at least two renderers:
a) Sonore Signature Rendu (UPnP or OH, depending on Bubble Server)
b) Jplay JPlaystreamer (OH)

I have a mix of FLAC (all levels of compression over the eyars, from default 5-6 to uncompressed), WAV and DSF.

Question 1: For A I don't need to do flac:wav transcoding command in stream.transcode, for B I do. Why? Does the Rendu do it's own transcoding? Is there such a thing as not transcoding FLAC??

Question 2: due to some bugs in this early beta testing of the JPLAYstreamer (wav static blasts due to metadata, etc) I have begun thinking (again, thought about this months ago) that I may want to take my most played WAV albums and convert them to FLAC, since I transcode to WAV anyway, in Jplaystreamer. BUT....what about Rendu? Does it not transcode FLAC and therefore have a theoretical sonic advantage with wav??

Question 3: if I go ahead and convert my wavs to FLAC (batch conversion with db poweramp) should I do uncompressed FLAC or does Minimserver care? I do little if any seeking so seek tables are not a real concern, but how Minimserver transcodes or even decodes, is important if it means choosing a certain compression level.

Thanks
Ted
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24-02-2015, 18:44
Post: #2
RE: Educate me on FLAC choices when streaming
(24-02-2015 02:58)ted_b Wrote:  Simon,
I am currently using Minimserver/Minimstreamer for at least two renderers:
a) Sonore Signature Rendu (UPnP or OH, depending on Bubble Server)
b) Jplay JPlaystreamer (OH)

I have a mix of FLAC (all levels of compression over the eyars, from default 5-6 to uncompressed), WAV and DSF.

Question 1: For A I don't need to do flac:wav transcoding command in stream.transcode, for B I do. Why? Does the Rendu do it's own transcoding? Is there such a thing as not transcoding FLAC??

This seems like a bug or limitation of JPLAYstreamer. As you are able to play FLAC on the Rendu without MinimServer transcoding, the Rendu must contain a FLAC decoder (as would be normal for a UPnP renderer), even though I don't see this mentioned on the Sonore web page.

Quote:Question 2: due to some bugs in this early beta testing of the JPLAYstreamer (wav static blasts due to metadata, etc) I have begun thinking (again, thought about this months ago) that I may want to take my most played WAV albums and convert them to FLAC, since I transcode to WAV anyway, in Jplaystreamer. BUT....what about Rendu? Does it not transcode FLAC and therefore have a theoretical sonic advantage with wav??

If you do this, you might find that sound quality is worse unless you also enable flac:wav or flac:wav24 transcoding in MinimStreamer. (With my Linn renderer, it sounds better to me if the renderer is not doing the FLAC decoding.) I suggest you try encoding a single WAV album as FLAC and compare the different combinations for sound quality.

Quote:Question 3: if I go ahead and convert my wavs to FLAC (batch conversion with db poweramp) should I do uncompressed FLAC or does Minimserver care? I do little if any seeking so seek tables are not a real concern, but how Minimserver transcodes or even decodes, is important if it means choosing a certain compression level.

Thanks
Ted

The default compression level is fine. I suggest you include a seek table as this should make seeking faster and it takes very little space.
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24-02-2015, 20:19
Post: #3
RE: Educate me on FLAC choices when streaming
Simon,
Thanks as always. So, are you saying that if indeed the Rendu does it's own FLAC decoding (since I don't need to add flac:wav when using it) that I might hear a difference to do flac:wav in Minimserver and, like you and your Linn, appreciate your renderer not doing the FLAC decoding? That is how I have it set now (so as to listen to both renderers without touching Minimserver) but didn't put two an two together to realize I am theoretically hearing the Rendu do different work than before I started down this JPlaystreamer beta testing.

One addtl question about all this: do users find sonic differences in installing Minimserver on a Synology NAS vs a pc on the network (which uses the Synology as its music file library). I have both now set up this way (an install prompted by the Jplay guys during the myriad of beta testing we are doing).

Finally, I thank you for turning me on to Bubble Server on my NAS. it has made my Rendu an OH renderer and opened me up to many control points like Lumin, Lightning, Kazoo as well as those that identify both UPnP and OH devices like Android's BuubleUPnp player. It seems there is something in Bubble Server that is quite native to OH, cuz the folks at Jplay are having a difficult time having their new pc-based OH renderer, JPlaystreamer, be seen by any of these. We started with Kinsky and now the newer beta version can be seen by Kazoo, but Lumin and BublleUPnP cannot see it, and Lightning, although visible, cannot play it. Linn's OpenHome sounds maybe not as open as hoped. Smile I'm telling the JPlay guys to look at Bubble Server for some ideas, since it seems to know some things, to easily turn UPnP devices into OH renderers that are seen by everyone.
Thanks
Ted
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24-02-2015, 20:32
Post: #4
RE: Educate me on FLAC choices when streaming
(24-02-2015 20:19)ted_b Wrote:  Simon,
Thanks as always. So, are you saying that if indeed the Rendu does it's own FLAC decoding (since I don't need to add flac:wav when using it) that I might hear a difference to do flac:wav in Minimserver and, like you and your Linn, appreciate your renderer not doing the FLAC decoding? That is how I have it set now (so as to listen to both renderers without touching Minimserver) but didn't put two an two together to realize I am theoretically hearing the Rendu do different work than before I started down this JPlaystreamer beta testing.

Yes, I am saying exactly what you have just said. Smile

Quote:One addtl question about all this: do users find sonic differences in installing Minimserver on a Synology NAS vs a pc on the network (which uses the Synology as its music file library). I have both now set up this way (an install prompted by the Jplay guys during the myriad of beta testing we are doing).

I run MinimServer on many different devices and I have not heard such differences myself. You would need to do a comparison (double blind if possible) to find out whether you can hear any difference.

Quote:Finally, I thank you for turning me on to Bubble Server on my NAS. it has made my Rendu an OH renderer and opened me up to many control points like Lumin, Lightning, Kazoo as well as those that identify both UPnP and OH devices like Android's BuubleUPnp player. It seems there is something in Bubble Server that is quite native to OH, cuz the folks at Jplay are having a difficult time having their new pc-based OH renderer, JPlaystreamer, be seen by any of these. We started with Kinsky and now the newer beta version can be seen by Kazoo, but Lumin and BublleUPnP cannot see it, and Lightning, although visible, cannot play it. Linn's OpenHome sounds maybe not as open as hoped. Smile I'm telling the JPlay guys to look at Bubble Server for some ideas, since it seems to know some things, to easily turn UPnP devices into OH renderers that are seen by everyone.
Thanks
Ted

I agree that BubbleUPnP Server works well for this, although I have had a few problem reports from users that turned out to be related to this setup. Bear in mind that BubbleUPnP Server has been in development for a few years, so it may take some time for JPLAYStreamer to reach the same level of maturity and reliability.
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24-02-2015, 22:55 (This post was last modified: 24-02-2015 23:00 by ted_b.)
Post: #5
RE: Educate me on FLAC choices when streaming
So, to reiterate, default flac compression is no better than uncompressed flac for transcoding to wav?
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24-02-2015, 23:39
Post: #6
RE: Educate me on FLAC choices when streaming
(24-02-2015 22:55)ted_b Wrote:  So, to reiterate, default flac compression is no better than uncompressed flac for transcoding to wav?

No better or worse. I use the default level.

There is a slight increase in CPU consumption for transcoding FLAC to WAV if the FLAC compression level is 3 or above. This would only matter if you are running MinimServer on a very old and slow ARM-based NAS.
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