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AlbumArtist Issues - creates more Albums
27-09-2014, 12:37
Post: #11
RE: AlbumArtist Issues - creates more Albums
(27-09-2014 12:11)simoncn Wrote:  If I understand this correctly, if you choose to use an AlbumArtist tag or tags for any track in an album, these tag(s) would appear on every track of the album, presumably in the same order. Because an identical list of AlbumArtist tags appears on every track in the album, converting this list of tags to a "match key" string would correctly match all tracks of the album.

MinimServer could adopt such a scheme and this would work for your library. The problem I envisage is that many libraries would have some tracks in an album where one of the album artists isn't tagged (perhaps because he/she isn't playing on that track) and this would cause unexpected match failures.
This is exactly what happens if I don't use an alias for AlbumArtist, isn't it? I cannot guarantee the order of multi-value tags, since that depends on how the tagging software processes my entries (eg entered as Richter\\Fischer-Dieskau). I hope it preserves the order but cannot be 100% sure.

I suggested adding an extra optional tag to the multiFolderAlbum property so that for all existing users there would be no change at all, and the matching issue you mention will remain. For those that have a puzzle like mine, the rules would change to use that tag instead of AlbumArtist, so would read something like:

"When merging folder album contents, MinimServer checks for all of the following:

- The album names are the same, excluding any [disc <n>] or (disc <n>) suffix
- The artist values are the same. (These values are either the contents of the optional tag on the multiFolderAlbum property if defined and present else the AlbumArtist tag values if present else the Artist tag values if they are the same for all audio files in the folder album.)
- The folder match filters (if present) are the same. A match filter is an optional suffix of the form ['<filter>'] that can be appended to a folder name."

As I said, the only reason I use an alias at all is because of the (to me still slightly odd) handling of AlbumArtist when it has multiple values and I try to use it as an index.

However, if I'm the only person to have this problem, please don't do any work on it unless you think others might benefit as well. Whilst minimserver really is a great system, it isn't my main server (I use LMS/Squeezebox most of the time).
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27-09-2014, 13:25
Post: #12
RE: AlbumArtist Issues - creates more Albums
I have now found out why, if I do not use an alias for AlbumArtist, I still get a slightly different album count from my other systems.

For example, I have an Album with one title, 9 tracks, in 3 folders. All have AlbumArtist defined as "Stern Isaac\\Zukerman Pinchas" (ie. 2 tag values).

6 have Artist as "Stern Isaac\\Zukerman Pinchas" (2 'works' in 2 different folders)
3 have Artist as "Stern Isaac\\Kilmer Richard" plus a conductor tag as "Zukerman Pinchas" (1 'work')

This produces two albums in the list, even though Album is the same of all tracks, and AlbumArtist is defined and is the same on all tracks.

If I change the Artist tags for the last 3 tracks to be Stern Isaac\\Zukerman Pinchas\\Kilmer Richard" I still get 2 albums.
If I change the Artist tags for the last 3 tracks to be Stern Isaac\\Zukerman Pinchas I get 1 album.

It looks as if the AlbumArtist is being ignored - is it because it is multi-valued?
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27-09-2014, 15:05
Post: #13
RE: AlbumArtist Issues - creates more Albums
(27-09-2014 13:25)Pastim Wrote:  It looks as if the AlbumArtist is being ignored - is it because it is multi-valued?

Yes. You will find a warning message in the MinimServer log telling you this. MinimServer doesn't allow having more than one AlbumArtist value for an album and ignores all AlbumArtist values for the album if you attempt to do this.
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27-09-2014, 15:27
Post: #14
RE: AlbumArtist Issues - creates more Albums
(27-09-2014 15:05)simoncn Wrote:  Yes. You will find a warning message in the MinimServer log telling you this. MinimServer doesn't allow having more than one AlbumArtist value for an album and ignores all AlbumArtist values for the album if you attempt to do this.
So there is. I didn't think to look there - silly of me.

I still don't understand the reason for this rule, but such is life Smile
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27-09-2014, 15:32
Post: #15
RE: AlbumArtist Issues - creates more Albums
(27-09-2014 12:37)Pastim Wrote:  This is exactly what happens if I don't use an alias for AlbumArtist, isn't it?

No, because it isn't possible currently to have more than one AlbumArtist value for an album. The current approach for matching on Artist values is similar to this (with the order considered significant).

Quote:I cannot guarantee the order of multi-value tags, since that depends on how the tagging software processes my entries (eg entered as Richter\\Fischer-Dieskau). I hope it preserves the order but cannot be 100% sure.

The order of tags is significant and I would be surprised if any tagging software changes this.

Quote:I suggested adding an extra optional tag to the multiFolderAlbum property so that for all existing users there would be no change at all, and the matching issue you mention will remain. For those that have a puzzle like mine, the rules would change to use that tag instead of AlbumArtist, ....

If this were to be supported, I think it would need to allow the user to specify any combination of tags which would replace the current combination of Album plus either AlbumArtist or Artist. I don't think it's an ideal or complete solution because some people would still find it surprising that they can't specify more than one AlbumArtist value for an album.

Quote:As I said, the only reason I use an alias at all is because of the (to me still slightly odd) handling of AlbumArtist when it has multiple values and I try to use it as an index.

I think this is the real issue rather than the current matching rules.

Quote:However, if I'm the only person to have this problem, please don't do any work on it unless you think others might benefit as well. Whilst minimserver really is a great system, it isn't my main server (I use LMS/Squeezebox most of the time).

I appreciate the feedback and I will bear it in mind as something to be considered for the future.
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27-09-2014, 15:57
Post: #16
RE: AlbumArtist Issues - creates more Albums
Thanks.

(27-09-2014 15:32)simoncn Wrote:  If this were to be supported, I think it would need to allow the user to specify any combination of tags which would replace the current combination of Album plus either AlbumArtist or Artist. I don't think it's an ideal or complete solution because some people would still find it surprising that they can't specify more than one AlbumArtist value for an album.

I am, probably erroneously, assuming that I used an alias for AlbumArtist, multiple values could then be supported. So in my situation, using an alias MainArtist for AlbumArtist, and quoting that as the alternative to AlbumArtist for merging albums, it might do what I wanted.

Anyway, thanks again for all your help. I'll leave it at that.
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27-09-2014, 17:51 (This post was last modified: 27-09-2014 17:53 by DavidHB.)
Post: #17
RE: AlbumArtist Issues - creates more Albums
(27-09-2014 15:57)Pastim Wrote:  I am, probably erroneously, assuming that I used an alias for AlbumArtist, multiple values could then be supported.

Forgive me for continuing, but there's a point it might be useful to discuss, which is the relationship between the Album and AlbumArtist tags, and why we might need both.

It is important to recognise that there is no 'right' or 'wrong' way to use these or any other tags. So far as I am aware, there is no official, authoritative definition of what tags should contain, other than the names given to them. There is some custom and practice, but it is by no means standardised. So what you are doing is different from what I am doing, but it cannot be 'erroneous'.

For me, the only point of having two separate tags is that Artist relates to the specific track, and AlbumArtist relates to the whole album of which the track is a part. It only makes sense to have an AlbumArtist entry if (1) the artist(s) in question define or are in some other way associated with the whole album and (2) the AlbumArtist entry can be the same for all the tracks of the album. Artist entries, by contrast, can and do vary from track to track.

Here is an example. In my collection, I have the sampler album of the Hyperion Schubert Edition - 27 Lieder all sung by different singers, but all with the same pianist (Graham Johnson). For each track I have two Artist entries - the singer of that particular Lied and Graham Johnson. The Album Artist for all tracks is Graham Johnson (only), because he is the one constant in the artist line-up of the album as a whole. If, as in a compilation or one of those arbitrarily coupled albums you sometimes get, there is no constant in the artist line-up, I leave AlbumArtist blank.

I find that this approach works for me, and it goes with the grain of the way MinimServer works, which makes things easier. I don't know, and don't really care, whether it is 'right' or 'wrong'. But, if a different approach has advantages I haven't thought of, I am very willing to consider it as an alternative.

David
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27-09-2014, 18:02
Post: #18
RE: AlbumArtist Issues - creates more Albums
(27-09-2014 15:57)Pastim Wrote:  I am, probably erroneously, assuming that I used an alias for AlbumArtist, multiple values could then be supported. So in my situation, using an alias MainArtist for AlbumArtist, and quoting that as the alternative to AlbumArtist for merging albums, it might do what I wanted.

Anyway, thanks again for all your help. I'll leave it at that.

You might be able to get it to work but it doesn't feel like a good solution. If it is important for MinimServer to support multiple AlbumArtist values, I would like to find a straightforward and natural way to do this. I will think about whether there are any other design approaches that might work for you and would be natural for users and practical to implement.

Thanks again for all your input.
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27-09-2014, 18:08
Post: #19
RE: AlbumArtist Issues - creates more Albums
(27-09-2014 17:51)DavidHB Wrote:  Forgive me for continuing, but there's a point it might be useful to discuss, which is the relationship between the Album and AlbumArtist tags, and why we might need both.

It is important to recognise that there is no 'right' or 'wrong' way to use these or any other tags. So far as I am aware, there is no official, authoritative definition of what tags should contain, other than the names given to them. There is some custom and practice, but it is by no means standardised. So what you are doing is different from what I am doing, but it cannot be 'erroneous'.

For me, the only point of having two separate tags is that Artist relates to the specific track, and AlbumArtist relates to the whole album of which the track is a part. It only makes sense to have an AlbumArtist entry if (1) the artist(s) in question define or are in some other way associated with the whole album and (2) the AlbumArtist entry can be the same for all the tracks of the album. Artist entries, by contrast, can and do vary from track to track.

Here is an example. In my collection, I have the sampler album of the Hyperion Schubert Edition - 27 Lieder all sung by different singers, but all with the same pianist (Graham Johnson). For each track I have two Artist entries - the singer of that particular Lied and Graham Johnson. The Album Artist for all tracks is Graham Johnson (only), because he is the one constant in the artist line-up of the album as a whole. If, as in a compilation or one of those arbitrarily coupled albums you sometimes get, there is no constant in the artist line-up, I leave AlbumArtist blank.

I find that this approach works for me, and it goes with the grain of the way MinimServer works, which makes things easier. I don't know, and don't really care, whether it is 'right' or 'wrong'. But, if a different approach has advantages I haven't thought of, I am very willing to consider it as an alternative.

David
I agree with all of that, except I put 'Various' in AlbumArtist instead of leaving it blank where there is no constant AlbumArtist. Some servers like this (and no doubt some don't).

However, what do you do if 2 Artists are constant across the whole album, with a few others chipping in on some tracks? MinimServer does not like having 2 such AlbumArtists.
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27-09-2014, 19:45
Post: #20
RE: AlbumArtist Issues - creates more Albums
(27-09-2014 18:08)Pastim Wrote:  I agree with all of that, except I put 'Various' in AlbumArtist instead of leaving it blank where there is no constant AlbumArtist. Some servers like this (and no doubt some don't).

To be honest, my practice is not entirely consistent, but I suspect that it is probably sensible to use a place holder as you do, rather than leave a blank.

(27-09-2014 18:08)Pastim Wrote:  However, what do you do if 2 Artists are constant across the whole album, with a few others chipping in on some tracks? MinimServer does not like having 2 such AlbumArtists.
What MinimServer does not like (understandably in my view) is having multiple AlbumArtist tags, but it is happy to deal with multiple Artist tags. So an AlbumArtist tag of 'Chicago Symphony Orchestra, Georg Solti' will work, as will separate Artist tags of 'Chicago Symphony Orchestra' and 'Georg Solti'. And you can similarly populate the separate Orchestra and Conductor tags as well.

This approach has not broken anything in my system, but I cannot of course say how well it would work for other people.

David
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