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simoncn · (This post was last modified: 23-04-2014 14:14 by simoncn.)

(23-04-2014 12:51)simoncn Wrote: I would need to verify whether uncompressed files take longer to seek than compressed files.

If you decide to change to compressed FLAC files, you should be able to do a bulk conversion of your existing uncompressed files in dBpoweramp without the need for reripping.

The combination I am using is to rip to compressed FLAC files (default compression level) and play the files transcoded to WAV. I have compared the sound of compressed and uncompressed FLAC files, and I have compared the sound of different FLAC compression levels, and I haven't been able to hear any difference in the sound. However, I do hear a difference in the sound when I transcode a FLAC file to WAV.

As I suspected, uncompressed FLAC files take longer for MinimStreamer to seek than compressed FLAC files.

I ran a test on my Windows PC (faster than a Synology NAS). Seeking to the end of your uncompressed test file took 9 seconds. After converting the file to the default FLAC compression level 5, this took 3 seconds. After adding a seek table using metaflac, this took 0 seconds.

The solution is for you to use FLAC compression, or a seek table, or both. You could try using dBpoweramp to convert the largest file you have into compressed format and see whether the Sonos is able to seek to the end of the track. If not, you would need to add a seek table using the following command:

metaflac --add-seekpoint=10s <filename>

gnomus · 23-04-2014, 15:49

(23-04-2014 14:07)simoncn Wrote: ...
The solution is for you to use FLAC compression, or a seek table, or both. You could try using dBpoweramp to convert the largest file you have into compressed format and see whether the Sonos is able to seek to the end of the track. If not, you would need to add a seek table using the following command:

metaflac --add-seekpoint=10s <filename>

Simon

Thanks again for your time on this. You have, of course, gone way past what little I know about all of this. I have no idea what a 'seek table' is, and, even though you have given me a command, I have no idea where I am supposed to put that command. Is that something I do at the time of ripping, or if I choose to batch convert?

I am also a little paranoid about doing anything that might lose the considerable amount of work that I have done so far. I think that I will carry on ripping everything as I have been doing (I'm about half-way through). I then intend to back everything up to another location. That might be the best time to consider converting everything to compressed FLAC (and adding 'seek tables').

I am off to hear some Linn streamers tomorrow - that might well change everything again.

simoncn · (This post was last modified: 23-04-2014 16:10 by simoncn.)

(23-04-2014 15:49)gnomus Wrote: Simon

Thanks again for your time on this. You have, of course, gone way past what little I know about all of this. I have no idea what a 'seek table' is, and, even though you have given me a command, I have no idea where I am supposed to put that command. Is that something I do at the time of ripping, or if I choose to batch convert?

I am also a little paranoid about doing anything that might lose the considerable amount of work that I have done so far. I think that I will carry on ripping everything as I have been doing (I'm about half-way through). I then intend to back everything up to another location. That might be the best time to consider converting everything to compressed FLAC (and adding 'seek tables').

The seek table is an internal index within a FLAC file that gives the byte offsets for various time points in the audio. If it is present, any software that needs to seek to a given time point (e.g., 123 seconds) can get to the desired file position (e.g., 12345678 bytes) much more quickly.

Unfortunately, dBpoweramp doesn't include a seek table when ripping and doesn't have the capability to add a seek table when batch converting.

The metaflac command is one of the official FLAC tools. See this page for details of where to download these tools.

Adding a seek table doesn't change anything else in the FLAC file and won't cause any compatibility problems with other software. Similarly, using FLAC compression doesn't change the audio data within the file and won't cause any compatibility problems with other software.

Quote:I am off to hear some Linn streamers tomorrow - that might well change everything again.

I'm sure you'll be impressed with the Linn sound quality. I am!

gnomus · 23-04-2014, 16:28

(23-04-2014 16:08)simoncn Wrote: The seek table is an internal index within a FLAC file that gives the byte offsets for various time points in the audio. If it is present, any software that needs to seek to a given time point (e.g., 123 seconds) can get to the desired file position (e.g., 12345678 bytes) much more quickly.

Unfortunately, dBpoweramp doesn't include a seek table when ripping and doesn't have the capability to add a seek table when batch converting.

I got hold of dBpoweramp as that seemed to be the consensus one to use. I'll do more reading about metaflac and seek tables.

Quote:I'm sure you'll be impressed with the Linn sound quality. I am!

Not sure how impressed the bank manager will be though! Which Linn did you end up getting? I'm going to be hearing Sneaky, Majik and Akurate DS tomorrow. I also have an invite to an Exakt eveing on Friday. I do hope that I don't end up liking that!!!

simoncn · 23-04-2014, 17:16

(23-04-2014 16:28)gnomus Wrote: I got hold of dBpoweramp as that seemed to be the consensus one to use. I'll do more reading about metaflac and seek tables.

I think dBpoweramp is the best ripper available. Given this, it seems very surprising that you can't include a seek table as part of a batch file conversion.

Quote:Not sure how impressed the bank manager will be though! Which Linn did you end up getting? I'm going to be hearing Sneaky, Majik and Akurate DS tomorrow. I also have an invite to an Exakt eveing on Friday. I do hope that I don't end up liking that!!!

I bought a Klimax DS in 2008 and took advantage of the Renew upgrade to KDS/1 specification in 2011, so I am now very fortunate to have both the upgraded KDS/1 and the Renew box containing my original KDS board.

I haven't heard Exakt and I probably don't want to expose myself to temptation by doing that. Smile

mccormw · 25-04-2014, 13:05

I don't think jitter has any affect because these players are in affect asynchronous with respect to the music stream. They have a buffer and thus read from this buffer, so they MUST be doing their own timing, ie they re-clock the data from the buffer. No way could you impose synchronous behavior across a buffer. IMHO

As someone said earlier NAIM themselves say that the noise floor can be raised by the extra processing of FLAC files and this might affect the sound quality. That is the reason they give.

gnomus · 26-04-2014, 19:05

(23-04-2014 14:07)simoncn Wrote: ...
As I suspected, uncompressed FLAC files take longer for MinimStreamer to seek than compressed FLAC files.

I ran a test on my Windows PC (faster than a Synology NAS). Seeking to the end of your uncompressed test file took 9 seconds. After converting the file to the default FLAC compression level 5, this took 3 seconds. After adding a seek table using metaflac, this took 0 seconds.
...

For those interested, my new Linn DS does not seem to jump to the next track when I try to skip ahead into a track. I tried skipping around 12-13 minutes into one of my longer tracks. The Linn thought about things for around 30 secs, then started playing at the point I had skipped to.

I may still try adding a seek table, but I'm almost full time ripping at the present.

simoncn · 26-04-2014, 21:59

(26-04-2014 19:05)gnomus Wrote: For those interested, my new Linn DS does not seem to jump to the next track when I try to skip ahead into a track. I tried skipping around 12-13 minutes into one of my longer tracks. The Linn thought about things for around 30 secs, then started playing at the point I had skipped to.

I may still try adding a seek table, but I'm almost full time ripping at the present.

I believe the Linn doesn't have a timeout for skipping, unlike the Sonos. It's still quite inconvenient to have to wait so long.

simoncn · 13-05-2014, 23:09

(26-04-2014 19:05)gnomus Wrote: For those interested, my new Linn DS does not seem to jump to the next track when I try to skip ahead into a track. I tried skipping around 12-13 minutes into one of my longer tracks. The Linn thought about things for around 30 secs, then started playing at the point I had skipped to.

I may still try adding a seek table, but I'm almost full time ripping at the present.

Try this again with MinimStreamer 0.3.18. You should see a significant improvement in seek times for transcoded FLAC files that don't contain a seek table.

gnomus · 14-05-2014, 18:49

(13-05-2014 23:09)simoncn Wrote:
(26-04-2014 19:05)gnomus Wrote: For those interested, my new Linn DS does not seem to jump to the next track when I try to skip ahead into a track. I tried skipping around 12-13 minutes into one of my longer tracks. The Linn thought about things for around 30 secs, then started playing at the point I had skipped to.

I may still try adding a seek table, but I'm almost full time ripping at the present.

Try this again with MinimStreamer 0.3.18. You should see a significant improvement in seek times for transcoded FLAC files that don't contain a seek table.

Well done Simon! As far as I can tell you have fixed the 'issue'. I tried a few tracks. Probably the most "challenging" was a 24 minute 88/24 track. I could jump from start to finish and back again (and all points inbetween) with an estimated delay of just under a second. That's more than good enough for me. (I'm pleased about that because I'm not really sure I got my head around that 'seek table' business.)

I hope that feedback is helpful. Let me know if you want me to try out anything else. And thanks again for continuing to improve your server/streamer.