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simoncn · 22-05-2014, 15:40

(22-05-2014 11:33)DavidHB Wrote: The best I can say of the "combined Kazoo" user experience is that it is somewhat better than DNLA. Linn have clearly committed themselves to using the ohMedia standard as the basis for Kazoo, but AFAIK they are the only major equipment manufacturer to do so; all the big players seem totally committed to DNLA with its (from their perspective) convenient limitations.

I don't think it is correct to describe ohMedia as a standard. It is a specification written by Linn. In contrast, both the UPnP AV and DLNA (note: spelling) specifications have been developed by industry bodies with broad membership from many companies in the audio industry and are widely implemented.

It is also relevant to this discussion that the protocol used by Kazoo to communicate with Kazoo Server is not (yet?) a published part of the ohMedia specification and therefore cannot be implemented by anyone except Linn.

Quote:Admittedly, as implemented in Kazoo, ohMedia does provide rather more for classical music listeners than an ordinary DNLA server, but switch back to MinimServer and it is clear just how limited the Kazoo Server support for browsing classical music actually is. Essentially, all you have is a limited, static browse tree, rather than the configurable and dynamic browse paths available in MinimServer. The speed with which Kazoo serves album art thumbnails on my Windows machine is impressive, but is hardly compensation for the poor browsing experience.

As you can see from the combination of MinimServer and BubbleUPnP/BubbleDS (for example), the ability to provide good suppport for classical music isn't determined by whether ohMedia or UPnP/DLNA is used, but rather by the flexibility of the server and the control point.

Quote:The one area where the Kazoo combination does acquit itself rather well is Search. I seem to recall reading a post by Simon (perhaps on another forum) in which he indicates that the search function is implemented via ohMedia (i.e. currently only in Kazoo Server) rather than by UPnP, and this presumably explains why Kazoo search does not work with MinimServer. The search is dynamic and very quick, and more tags are searched than in any UPnP control point I have used. Is there any chance that MinimServer could implement the ohMedia Search protocol? This would considerably improve the user experience of Kazoo with MinimServer.

There is no chance at the present time that MinimServer could implement this protocol because it isn't published (see above). If and when it is published, I will look at it and decide whether it makes sense for MinimServer to implement it in addition to MinimServer's current support for UPnP Search. Linn have said that support for UPnP Search is an objective for a future release of Kazoo, so perhaps a better solution would be for Linn to add this support.

bbrip · 22-05-2014, 18:32

Quote:There is no chance at the present time that MinimServer could implement this protocol because it isn't published (see above). If and when it is published, I will look at it and decide whether it makes sense for MinimServer to implement it in addition to MinimServer's current support for UPnP Search. Linn have said that support for UPnP Search is an objective for a future release of Kazoo, so perhaps a better solution would be for Linn to add this support.

I would totally agree that it makes little sense to implement a non-standard search protocol just because Linn felt they had to invent one Undecided

Those resources might have been better allocated putting out a top notch control point. Rolleyes

DavidHB · (This post was last modified: 23-05-2014 20:15 by DavidHB.)

(22-05-2014 15:40)simoncn Wrote: I don't think it is correct to describe ohMedia as a standard. It is a specification written by Linn. In contrast, both the UPnP AV and DLNA (note: spelling) specifications have been developed by industry bodies with broad membership from many companies in the audio industry and are widely implemented.

It is probably of little use to get into a discussion as to what constitutes a standard; we can simply note that, on its website, ohMedia claims to be one, and that fact is itself of interest. That said, I agree with the essence of your point; standard or not, it can't be much of one when it is trumped by two more widely used (and unquestionable) standards, and when important parts of what is claimed to be an open standard are not even published.

One does wonder why Linn has gone down this path, which seems to lead only to a dead end - their well-known innate cussedness, perhaps?

(22-05-2014 15:40)simoncn Wrote: It is also relevant to this discussion that the protocol used by Kazoo to communicate with Kazoo Server is not (yet?) a published part of the ohMedia specification and therefore cannot be implemented by anyone except Linn.

I'm sorry that I had not joined up the dots on this one. I realise now that you are referring to your exchange on the Linn forum with Linn staff, who seemed very ready to provide documentation, but have not done so.

Quote:As you can see from the combination of MinimServer and BubbleUPnP/BubbleDS (for example), the ability to provide good suppport for classical music isn't determined by whether ohMedia or UPnP/DLNA is used, but rather by the flexibility of the server and the control point.

Indeed. But my point (perhaps badly expressed) was that I was trying to see whether the new path on which Linn seemed to be striking out would produce useful results; Linn's product history is full of new ideas that seemed crazy at the time but actually came good. A number of these crazy ideas turned out to be game changers. I think we now know enough to realise that the Kazoo CP/server combination is not one of those.

Quote:There is no chance at the present time that MinimServer could implement this protocol because it isn't published (see above). If and when it is published, I will look at it and decide whether it makes sense for MinimServer to implement it in addition to MinimServer's current support for UPnP Search. Linn have said that support for UPnP Search is an objective for a future release of Kazoo, so perhaps a better solution would be for Linn to add this support.

Now I understand better how things are, I cannot but agree with you.

(22-05-2014 18:32)bbrip Wrote: I would totally agree that it makes little sense to implement a non-standard search protocol just because Linn felt they had to invent one

Quite so. The more interesting question is why Linn (who are a generally profitable company, with a track record of unorthodox but often successful marketing) should feel this need. My own guess, for what it is worth, is that Linn's highest priority is to provide a software suite that its dealer network can easily use and install for customers; the 'open systems' features seem to be a secondary consideration.

It is easy to understand why companies like Linn, Naim and Lumin do not wish to tie themselves into the DLNA (sorry about previous mis-spellings) franchise, because for such companies that option is both expensive and constraining. But that makes it all the more important that they should do more with UPnP AV. The ohMedia shortcut which Linn is attempting hasn't worked so far, and shows no signs of succeeding in future.

Quote:Those resources might have been better allocated putting out a top notch control point.

Well, yes, but that begs the question as to what would constitute 'top-notch' Smile

. As MinimServer users, I think that we might be able to agree on that, but the fact that we are (presumably) prepared to work on our metadata and make extensive use of MinimServer's capabilities may well place us in a minority among the target market for network players. Most people want a package that is easy to set up, and don't want to be bothered with technicalities. For such people, the Kazoo software makes some sense. It makes no sense to me, because, second only to listening to the music, dealing with the data is what I enjoy most about this hobby.

David

simoncn · 23-05-2014, 22:45

Just a couple of comments:

(23-05-2014 20:08)DavidHB Wrote: One does wonder why Linn has gone down this path, which seems to lead only to a dead end - their well-known innate cussedness, perhaps?

I'm sure they have a reason. Perhaps this will become clearer in due course.

Quote:Indeed. But my point (perhaps badly expressed) was that I was trying to see whether the new path on which Linn seemed to be striking out would produce useful results; Linn's product history is full of new ideas that seemed crazy at the time but actually came good. A number of these crazy ideas turned out to be game changers. I think we now know enough to realise that the Kazoo CP/server combination is not one of those.

I think it's a bit early to reach this conclusion. There might be more in the pipeline for Kazoo than has been revealed so far. After all, we're only looking at the first beta at present.

DavidHB · 25-05-2014, 09:28

(23-05-2014 22:45)simoncn Wrote:
Quote: A number of [Linn's] crazy ideas turned out to be game changers. I think we now know enough to realise that the Kazoo CP/server combination is not one of those.

I think it's a bit early to reach this conclusion. There might be more in the pipeline for Kazoo than has been revealed so far. After all, we're only looking at the first beta at present.

This is intriguing, and I'd like to be proved wrong.

Also a couple of more positive words about ohMedia. From further reading, and if I understand it correctly, ohMedia provides the means by which Linn devices do gapless playback out of the box, and also enables them to respond intelligently and consistently to multiple control points. The latter facility is very useful for me; I can control my music with whatever device comes to hand without worrying that I am going to completely confuse the system. Sadly, however, these positive aspects cannot remove the concerns over the standards issues previously discussed.

David

DavidHB · 21-06-2014, 19:47

It seems sensible to piggy-back on this thread to report a bug in the combination of MinimServer and Kazoo which Simon may wish to refer to his contacts at Linn.

Using the latest beta (4.1.482) or nightly build (20 June), when an album is selected and (say) the Play All Now button is pressed, Kazoo briefly shows the number of tracks added under the mouse pointer and proceeds to add them to the playlist. At least it does if the album does not contain groups. If the album is grouped, the number of tracks shown is '+0', and no tracks are added to the playlist.

Kinsky seem s to have no problem with groups as they are used in MinimServer, so I have to assume that this is a bug in Kazoo. I'm happy to report it myself, but Simon may have more clout ...

David

simoncn · 21-06-2014, 20:43

(21-06-2014 19:47)DavidHB Wrote: It seems sensible to piggy-back on this thread to report a bug in the combination of MinimServer and Kazoo which Simon may wish to refer to his contacts at Linn.

Using the latest beta (4.1.482) or nightly build (20 June), when an album is selected and (say) the Play All Now button is pressed, Kazoo briefly shows the number of tracks added under the mouse pointer and proceeds to add them to the playlist. At least it does if the album does not contain groups. If the album is grouped, the number of tracks shown is '+0', and no tracks are added to the playlist.

Kinsky seem s to have no problem with groups as they are used in MinimServer, so I have to assume that this is a bug in Kazoo. I'm happy to report it myself, but Simon may have more clout ...

David

I think it is better for Kazoo users to report problems with Kazoo directly to Linn on the Linn forum. This enables Linn to ask the user for any additional information about the problem and to inform the user when a fix is available.

DavidHB · 21-06-2014, 22:46

(21-06-2014 20:43)simoncn Wrote: I think it is better for Kazoo users to report problems with Kazoo directly to Linn on the Linn forum. This enables Linn to ask the user for any additional information about the problem and to inform the user when a fix is available.

Fair enough. Will do

David