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Questions re Database and Indexing
20-12-2013, 11:20
Post: #1
Questions re Database and Indexing
I have installed the recent version of minim server and I am pleased by the way it handled my collection of classical music which has tags for composer, title and artists. I have the following questions:

a) Why did you not use a standard database library like sqllite?

b) Artists are in a comma separated list like "Brendel, Chicago Symphony Orchestra, Levine" and (year) is optional.

Is there a possibility to configure the scanning process in such a way that the index of artists is not built by the combination of all entries as given in artist tag, but by making a separate entry for each of the constituents.

In the above example that file would become accessible via artist index of "Brendel", "Chicago Symphony Orchestra" or "Levine".

This would allow to easily see all entries for a specific artist or orchestra without creating individual tags.

Thanks for your help!
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20-12-2013, 12:16
Post: #2
RE: Questions re Database and Indexing
(20-12-2013 11:20)LinAdmin Wrote:  b) Artists are in a comma separated list like "Brendel, Chicago Symphony Orchestra, Levine" and (year) is optional.

Is there a possibility to configure the scanning process in such a way that the index of artists is not built by the combination of all entries as given in artist tag, but by making a separate entry for each of the constituents.

In the above example that file would become accessible via artist index of "Brendel", "Chicago Symphony Orchestra" or "Levine".

This would allow to easily see all entries for a specific artist or orchestra without creating individual tags.

It's not possible with MinimServer to automatically separate multiple artists which are summarized in a single tag. There would be quite a lot of problems with this approach, the most obvious being that there is no standard for separating the artists in a single tag (some may use a comma, others may use a slash).

The remommended way to get each single artist in the index is to create a single ARTIST tag for each artist. For example, your single ARTIST tag "Brendel, Chicago Symphony Orchestra, Levine" should be split into three ARTIST tags. You can quite easily achieve this with a software like MP3tag.
Please note that you then still can configure MinimServer to send the full string "Brendel, Chicago Symphony Orchestra, Levine" to the control point by using the displayFormat property.
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20-12-2013, 15:18
Post: #3
RE: Questions re Database and Indexing
(20-12-2013 12:16)winxi Wrote:  The remommended way to get each single artist in the index is to create a single ARTIST tag for each artist. For example, your single ARTIST tag "Brendel, Chicago Symphony Orchestra, Levine" should be split into three ARTIST tags. You can quite easily achieve this with a software like MP3tag.
Please note that you then still can configure MinimServer to send the full string "Brendel, Chicago Symphony Orchestra, Levine" to the control point by using the displayFormat property.

I admit being a greenhorn regarding this tagging business...

a) Is it according to the standards that the same kind of tag like artist can be repeated within the same file?

b) Could other tags like composer also be repeated, e.g. when someone has written variations on a theme of a previous composer?

Thanks for your help!
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20-12-2013, 15:34 (This post was last modified: 20-12-2013 16:03 by DavidHB.)
Post: #4
RE: Questions re Database and Indexing
(20-12-2013 11:20)LinAdmin Wrote:  I have the following questions
a) Why did you not use a standard database library like sqllite?

As Simon makes clear in the documentation, MinimServer is built using standard (that is both cross-platform and standards compliant) modules, and is written in Java, which is a cross-platform language. Your reference to SQLite suggests that you are thinking of MinimServer as a database; actually, as its name implies, it is a server. It is not a data repository, and has no data recording or editing functions, but provides access to the (pre-existing) music files where the actual data resides. The key function of the server is to implement the standard protocol (UPnP AV) through which compliant devices (control points and renderers) can be given this access.

David
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20-12-2013, 15:56
Post: #5
RE: Questions re Database and Indexing
(20-12-2013 15:18)LinAdmin Wrote:  a) Is it according to the standards that the same kind of tag like artist can be repeated within the same file?

Yes, but not all software supports it, and as winxi explains, there is no standard means of deciding that a single entry (which is typically how the data is input) is to be recorded as multiple tags. I admit to chickening out of the whole multiple tags thing for my own collection; it seemed to be a fair amount of hassle for not a lot of gain.

Quote:b) Could other tags like composer also be repeated, e.g. when someone has written variations on a theme of a previous composer?

Yes, in concept at least. This thread on the MP3Tag forum may be of interest. Again, I am unsure how far multiple composer tags would be supported in, for example, control point displays. Typically, Composer is a less well supported tag than Title, Album and Artist, to the point where, in online databases, you often find Composer data recorded in the Artist or AlbumArtist tag.

David
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20-12-2013, 16:00
Post: #6
RE: Questions re Database and Indexing
(20-12-2013 15:18)LinAdmin Wrote:  a) Is it according to the standards that the same kind of tag like artist can be repeated within the same file?

b) Could other tags like composer also be repeated, e.g. when someone has written variations on a theme of a previous composer?

Two times yes Smile
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21-12-2013, 00:13
Post: #7
RE: Questions re Database and Indexing
(20-12-2013 12:16)winxi Wrote:  
(20-12-2013 11:20)LinAdmin Wrote:  b) Artists are in a comma separated list like "Brendel, Chicago Symphony Orchestra, Levine" and (year) is optional.

Is there a possibility to configure the scanning process in such a way that the index of artists is not built by the combination of all entries as given in artist tag, but by making a separate entry for each of the constituents.

In the above example that file would become accessible via artist index of "Brendel", "Chicago Symphony Orchestra" or "Levine".

This would allow to easily see all entries for a specific artist or orchestra without creating individual tags.

It's not possible with MinimServer to automatically separate multiple artists which are summarized in a single tag. There would be quite a lot of problems with this approach, the most obvious being that there is no standard for separating the artists in a single tag (some may use a comma, others may use a slash).

The remommended way to get each single artist in the index is to create a single ARTIST tag for each artist. For example, your single ARTIST tag "Brendel, Chicago Symphony Orchestra, Levine" should be split into three ARTIST tags. You can quite easily achieve this with a software like MP3tag.
Please note that you then still can configure MinimServer to send the full string "Brendel, Chicago Symphony Orchestra, Levine" to the control point by using the displayFormat property.
I think I disagree with what has just been said about the possibility of separately indexing artist names listed together in a single ARTIST tag. In fact, you can!

I have numerous tracks where the ARTIST tag holds many artist names separated by semi-colons (eg "ARTIST=Brendel, Alfred; Chicago Symphony Orchestra; Levine, James"). In minimserver config, "All Artists" is included inside the "indexTags" property. Each artist is then listed individually in the minimserver browse tree under the "All Artists" index. This has been tested with many control points (BubbleUPnP, UPnPlay, MediaHouse among them).

Setting ARTIST tag to a semi-colon separated list of artist names is a convention used by other music servers (like MediaMonkey, Foobar2000). MinimServer does the same. This convention allows a much more natural and convenient way to handle a long artist list than entering one ARTIST tag for each individual artist.

I am not sure however if the same result can be achieved if comma-separated (as opposed to semicolon-separated) lists of artist names are used. Changing commas for semicolons inside tags over a selection of tracks can be easily done using the MediaMonkey regexp extension. Other tools should exist to achieve the same task.

Regards
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21-12-2013, 10:27
Post: #8
RE: Questions re Database and Indexing
(21-12-2013 00:13)Andre Gosselin Wrote:  I think I disagree with what has just been said about the possibility of separately indexing artist names listed together in a single ARTIST tag. In fact, you can!

I have numerous tracks where the ARTIST tag holds many artist names separated by semi-colons (eg "ARTIST=Brendel, Alfred; Chicago Symphony Orchestra; Levine, James"). In minimserver config, "All Artists" is included inside the "indexTags" property. Each artist is then listed individually in the minimserver browse tree under the "All Artists" index. This has been tested with many control points (BubbleUPnP, UPnPlay, MediaHouse among them).

Setting ARTIST tag to a semi-colon separated list of artist names is a convention used by other music servers (like MediaMonkey, Foobar2000). MinimServer does the same. This convention allows a much more natural and convenient way to handle a long artist list than entering one ARTIST tag for each individual artist.

I am not sure however if the same result can be achieved if comma-separated (as opposed to semicolon-separated) lists of artist names are used. Changing commas for semicolons inside tags over a selection of tracks can be easily done using the MediaMonkey regexp extension. Other tools should exist to achieve the same task.

Regards

Hi Andre, thanks for this interesting information, I didn't know that MinimServer automatically separates ARTIST tag entries at semicolons. Is there a reference in the MinimServer user guide? Which tagging program do you use?
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21-12-2013, 15:49
Post: #9
RE: Questions re Database and Indexing
(21-12-2013 10:27)winxi Wrote:  
(21-12-2013 00:13)Andre Gosselin Wrote:  I think I disagree with what has just been said about the possibility of separately indexing artist names listed together in a single ARTIST tag. In fact, you can!

I have numerous tracks where the ARTIST tag holds many artist names separated by semi-colons (eg "ARTIST=Brendel, Alfred; Chicago Symphony Orchestra; Levine, James"). In minimserver config, "All Artists" is included inside the "indexTags" property. Each artist is then listed individually in the minimserver browse tree under the "All Artists" index. This has been tested with many control points (BubbleUPnP, UPnPlay, MediaHouse among them).

Setting ARTIST tag to a semi-colon separated list of artist names is a convention used by other music servers (like MediaMonkey, Foobar2000). MinimServer does the same. This convention allows a much more natural and convenient way to handle a long artist list than entering one ARTIST tag for each individual artist.

I am not sure however if the same result can be achieved if comma-separated (as opposed to semicolon-separated) lists of artist names are used. Changing commas for semicolons inside tags over a selection of tracks can be easily done using the MediaMonkey regexp extension. Other tools should exist to achieve the same task.

Regards

Hi Andre, thanks for this interesting information, I didn't know that MinimServer automatically separates ARTIST tag entries at semicolons. Is there a reference in the MinimServer user guide? Which tagging program do you use?
Hi Winxi,
I do not think I ever saw a reference to the use of semicolon separated lists in the MinimServer user guide, and I think it would be worth mentionning. This feature applies also to the GENRE tag, where I find it particularly helpfull because you do not have to worry anymore about the ordering of the entries in the tag (eg, GENRE="piano;violin;cello;trio", "trio;violin;cello;piano", etc will generate the same entries in the browse tree).

As for my "tagging" software, I do most of it with MediaMonkey (which is much more than a tagging program: MM is a full-featured music manager). I also use foobar200 to set some specialized tags (like DISCSUBTITLE) which cannot be easily handled with MM.

Regards, and a merry Christmas to you all
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21-12-2013, 17:32
Post: #10
RE: Questions re Database and Indexing
Andre,

Are you sure that Media Monkey is actually writing one tag with multiple entries? I use mp3tag, in which you can enter multiple values separated by double backslashes (e.g., in the Artist field, something like "Smith, Robert [piano]\\Jones, Alice [soprano]" -- without the quotes, of course). The double backslash is mp3tag's shorthand that tells the program write two separate artist tags. I wonder if MM is doing likewise but using a semicolon rather than backslashes.

FWIW, I use multiple tags (particularly for artists) with MinimServer and have had no problem.
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