Search
Member List
Calendar
Help
|
Tagging classical music
|
|
26-03-2014, 14:53
Post: #31
|
|||
|
|||
RE: Tagging classical music
(26-03-2014 09:14)Dieter Stockert Wrote: I spend a lot of work in tagging my classical music collection. At the same time I have to admit that I browse only in Minim server's folder view. Why that? Because I find it much too complicated (and restricted) to make it fit my needs and that's the same with the control apps. And another reason is that we can only tag in a 'flat' way. We have no 'relational' way of tagging, we don't even have some kind of hierarchy. For example you may have an artist playing forte piano as a soloist on one recording and harpsichord on another plus he is director on that one too, and maybe he's only part of an orchestra on another recording. Instead of having one entry if you browse for artist tag you will have him multiple times in the artist list. The same is with genre. There are dozens of genres for rock, pop and so on, but only one for classical music, but we would need sub genres like sonata, oratorio, concerto, symphony, chamber music and much more, plus additional sub-sub genres like horn concerto, sonata for violin and piano, flute trio, string quartet ... Is this where the unachievable best becomes the enemy of the feasible good? Allowing for the fact that we all have different needs and priorities, there must come a point where the elaboration of any dataset we use becomes self defeating. When I started using networked music, I too tended to use mainly the folder view (and, bearing in mind that folder and file names are just another form of metadata, there is nothing peculiar in that). This was because the arrangement of my folders largely followed the arrangement of the actual CDs on their shelves, which I had been using for many years, and so was a familiar point of reference. Subsequently, I changed to using the browse tree. This was a result of a decision to keep metadata entry, and with it the categorisation of data, as simple as possible. So, for example, I only use a few high-level genre values (Classical, Pop, Jazz, Folk), as experimentation indicates that having many genres (or multiple genre tags, which is technically possible) serves only to complicate the browsing process. The genre tag in my usage is mainly useful for excluding entries from the selection, rather than including entries in it. My scheme is built on the recognition that, in selecting classical music to play, we most often use the sequence (which may be implied or explicit) Genre -> Composer -> Work -> Performance. (It seems to me to be no accident that reference books of CD reviews are typically arranged in this sequence.) However, for recitals and the like we are more likely to use the sequence which is typical for genres other than classical, that is Artist -> Album. For me, it makes sense to optimise (and where appropriate simplify) metadata entry to fit with these sequences. I have tended to concentrate on ensuring that, in addition to reasonably complete Album, Track title and Artist enties, there are also entries for Composer, ComposerSort, Composition and (where needed) Group. Another limiting factor is that there is little or no point in entering metadata which is neither used in the browsing sequence nor displayed in the control point. Do I for instance need separate Artist entries for all 16 vocal soloists in Vaughan Williams' Serenade to Music? Probably not. While others may feel differently in a particular case, the need to avoid self-defeating elaboration is common to all. The same point applies when we look at database structure. I think it is sometimes helpful to consider the set of music files as a database, but it is clear that, in its native form, it is a single 'flat' table and cannot be in any way relational. The MinimServer browsing sequence works to some degree like a sequence of SQL queries of this table, where the result set from one query is in turn queried further to refine the selection. This approach seems to me to be both elegant and easy to understand. Rather than trying to make the data in any way relational, I would like to see a progressive development of UPnP Search. This is more a control point than a server issue (Simon's stated policy on UPnP Search in MinimServer is to support available control point capabilities), but it would be good if search capabilities could be extended to cover a wider range of tags and also to allow searching within the current selection. If searches could include Boolean AND, OR and NOT statements, that would be even better. The question of duplications in lists is, in my perception, less a function of any lack of 'relationality' that a matter of how the control point seeks data from the server; this thread provides some interesting insights into the issue. All in all, therefore, I acknowledge the concerns expressed by Dieter, but would suggest that we should still encourage new users to enter metadata systematically and, having done so, put the data to use via the MinimServer browse tree to improve the quality of their network music experience. David |
|||
|
|
26-03-2014, 18:36
Post: #32
|
|||
|
|||
RE: Tagging classical music
(26-03-2014 14:53)DavidHB Wrote: All in all, therefore, I acknowledge the concerns expressed by Dieter, but would suggest that we should still encourage new users to enter metadata systematically and, having done so, put the data to use via the MinimServer browse tree to improve the quality of their network music experience. +1 |
|||
|
|
|
27-03-2014, 02:44
(This post was last modified: 27-03-2014 02:53 by Mike48.)
Post: #33
|
|||
|
|||
RE: Tagging classical music
(26-03-2014 09:14)Dieter Stockert Wrote: ... we would need sub genres like sonata, oratorio, concerto, symphony, chamber music and much more, plus additional sub-sub genres like horn concerto, sonata for violin and piano, flute trio, string quartet ... I agree, it would be nice to have the tags be more relational. However, usually they are good enough. You can add a "subgenre" tag to your music files. I do this with dbpoweramp when I rip the files. Also, mp3tag and JRiver MC support it. I use some of the subgenres you have shown, and others, and I can browse through Minim using those subgenres. So try experimenting, and perhaps you will find the tagging more useful. I have also added an "instrument" tag that is browsable. When this is not blank (as for a string quartet), it can help narrow things down. So, for example, Genre = Classical, Subgenre = Concerto, and Instrument = Cello finds all cello concerti. Another combination might be Genre = Classical, Subgenre = Solo keyboard, and Instrument = Harpsichord. I find those two tags are quite helpful when I know the type of music I would like to hear, but not exactly what. In general, like DavidHB, I put the most priority on metadata that will be useful in browsing or searching. I often do list soloists, so I can see them when I am playing via USB, where all tags are visible, but when there are too many, I give up. It can be quicker to Google the album if the question comes up when listening via UPnP. Mike Portland, Oregon, USA |
|||
|
|
|
27-03-2014, 13:34
Post: #34
|
|||
|
|||
|
RE: Tagging classical music
A full relational database for tagging purposes is far too complex. As has been pointed out above, you can achieve quasi-relational results by being totally accurate - yes even pedantic - about the tags you do use. Only then all of Johann Sebastian Bach's works show up in one place. They wont of you have 5 different spellings of Bach in your tags.
The rule I follow here is simple: less is more. You tend to loose accuracy if you try to maintain too many different tags. Examples: I don't need a tag "Sub-Genre" my Genre entries for classical music consist of about 50 enties, so I have my differentiation already at this level. I don't need a tag "Instrument". Whats the point of putting "Piano" or "Organ" in the instrument tag when I have already defined a genre "Piano Concertos" or "Piano Sonatas" or "Organ Music" etc... Those instruments that may not have its own dedicated Genre, I enter into my multitagged Genre. So if I want to listen to a bassoon concerto (where there arent hundreds to support a dedicated Genre...), "Bassoon" will make it into the genre tag. I also decided against a "Composition" tag as I have defined composition at album level. Ie if a CD contains Brahms Piano Cto 1 and the Händel Variations, that CD will be tagged as two Albums (ie Compositions.). That way I get the Piano Concerto listed alongside my other recordings if the concerto and the Händel-Variations along with my other recordings of this oeuvre. The only way a keep an Album intact is of they are live-recordings of a piano recital etc... I do use a Soloist tag but as has been said I would not necessary enter all 12 soloists of some complex opera, but probably just the key 5 or 6 roles. Works all great for a pretty large collection at reasonable tag maintenance effort and instant retrievability. I never ever use folder view and haven't done so for years. If you tag properly there simply is no use for it. bbrip |
|||
|
|
|
27-03-2014, 16:18
Post: #35
|
|||
|
|||
RE: Tagging classical music
(27-03-2014 13:34)bbrip Wrote: ... A great demonstration that there are many ways to solve this problem. I use broad genres and additional tags; bbrip uses far narrower genres and fewer tags. Each of us is satisfied with the result and finds it reasonable to use and maintain. I have never used folder view, either, and I can't imagine doing so. I suppose someday I may have to resort to it (e.g., if I've badly mistagged something), but when there is a good tagging scheme, folder view is superfluous. Indeed, one could define a "good tagging scheme" as making folder view unnecessary. Mike Portland, Oregon, USA |
|||
|
|
|
31-03-2014, 10:10
Post: #36
|
|||
|
|||
RE: Tagging classical music
(22-03-2014 21:02)simoncn Wrote: You can use any tags with MinimServer. Unlike some other servers, there isn't a distinction between regular tags and custom tags.Thank you for this confirmation, that is very useful to know. (22-03-2014 21:02)simoncn Wrote: For the control point, your choice will depend on which streamer you are using and which device you want to use to run the control point. A good starting point would be BubbleUPnP running on an Android device. If you want to run the control point on an iPad, it is harder for me to make a recommendation.I would like to use a control point on a tablet, as I believe that with the larger screen it will be easier to browse through a large music collection. I have an iPad right now, but if better control points are available for Android devices only I would simply acquire another tablet. Maybe the best way to start is to try out the Kinsky app which seems to be popular for MacOS devices (and is also used by Lumin for their own app). (22-03-2014 21:02)simoncn Wrote: You can't "create" any tags with MinimServer. For this, you need to use some other tagging program to write the tags into your files. If the tags have been written correctly according to the tagging specifications and the file format is on the list of formats that MinimServer supports, MinimServer will read those tags if you have added them to the indexTags or itemTags list.Indeed, I didn't express myself very clearly - I mean creating custom tags with a tagging program or a suite like MusiCHI which can then be used by MinimServer and the control point alike. I intend to rip my CDs in the FLAC format which is one that is supported by MinimServer. Is there any specific way - except for trial & error of course - to determine if the relevant tagging programs write the tags according to the tagging specifications used for the FLAC format? If I understand correctly, it should be possible to create any number of custom tags and then add them to the indexTags / itemTags list to be able to browse through the library using them. (22-03-2014 21:02)simoncn Wrote: I suggest you start with a small number of albums and make sure you have an approach that works with MinimServer and works for how you want to browse and search your library. When you are happy with this, you can extend the same approach to your entire collection of CDs and recordings.That's good advice, and I do intend to follow up on it. Being German however, I have the urge to plan everything as much as possible in advance, in order to be as efficient as possible once I do start with the project in earnest. Thanks already a lot for your input, that is very helpful. |
|||
|
|
|
31-03-2014, 10:27
Post: #37
|
|||
|
|||
RE: Tagging classical music
(23-03-2014 17:58)magister Wrote: @Alpina_Lux,My thoughts exactly! Which is why I chose to go ahead with the FLAC format. It's lossless (one box ticked), not proprietary (unlike the Apple formats for example) and portable insofar as it stores the tags directly in the file. (23-03-2014 17:58)magister Wrote: So you need to store your music in a format such as FLAC that stores the tags inside each file. Music management programs like MusiCHI may have an option to do this. In other words, even if you do the tagging inside MusiCHI, the information is written into each music file. Even so, I recall that MusiCHI keeps its own database and allows you to define some "custom" tags and I'm not sure how portable those would be.That is also what I understood from their website, quoted by Simon as well. The whole interest for me in a program like MusiCHI is to be able to easily create useful custom tags (e.g. soloist, conductor, orchestra, recording venue, recording date) and to populate at least most of them automatically (by using their database) and consistently (which is one of the biggest challenges to make one's own library searchable later on). Their "clean" function as I understand it has been conceived to do just that, and with thousands of CDs in my collection this will make the tagging process so much easier (at least that's what I hope). However, as I want to use MinimServer and a tablet-based control point without an additional computer, it is necessary that those tags can also be read by other programs such as MinimServer and the control point. It seems I can only be certain that this works by trying it out with a few CDs - but if it works, it should simplify my ripping/tagging work quite a bit. (23-03-2014 17:58)magister Wrote: I think you should come up with a system that works for you and make sure all your information travels with each file. Some time ago Simon put up here the details of how he tags music, and some other people added more info. Look at the very first post in this thread, on the first page -- it's a great starting point. My system is similar to what Simon describes, although I added a couple of additional custom tags. As you use MinimServer, you will learn how you like to search. For instance, I have a lot of recordings of music by Beethoven. I added a "subgenre" tag that lets me pick Beethoven and then go immediately to the symphonies, bypassing chamber music, concertos, etc. if I want to hear one of the symphonies. Even with your own system, you can still use MusiCHI for tasks like making sure that your tags are consistent.I've read this and already given quite a bit of thought on this myself. Your approach also seems very useful; however, as other participants in this thread pointed out, I also need to make sure that there are not too many tags which may make tagging too complex and time consuming. [/quote] (23-03-2014 17:58)magister Wrote: For tagging on Windows, you can use the very nice mp3tag program (despite its name, it writes many kinds of tags including FLAC). It's donationware so you can try it and see if you like it. If you are fairly computer-savvy, foobar2000, a player for Windows, also does tagging. It's free but the setup is tougher for non-geeks. Creating custom FLAC tags is easy with mp3tag, which is what I use.That's a good idea; I just need to make sure that it works for a substantial number of performances of the same work. For example, I have around 60 recordings of Chopin's 1st piano concerto, among them probably two dozen by Martha Argerich alone. I need to be able to search for a specific recording of that work and distinguish live and studio recordings; I'd also like to see the label if it has been published. It seems that the following tags are required in that case: - composer (Chopin) - composition (piano concerto no. 1 op. 11) - orchestra (e.g. Orchestre Symphonique de Montréal) - conductor (e.g. Charles Dutoit) - soloist (M. Argerich) - recording date (e.g. 1999) - recording venue (e.g. Montréal) - recording type (live / studio) - label (e.g. EMI) I assume the "Group" tag will also be necessary, in order to be able to link the three movements of the relevant composition together, as well as to be able to include any encores that are given in case of a live performance. Quite complex, all this! |
|||
|
|
|
31-03-2014, 11:26
(This post was last modified: 31-03-2014 11:31 by bbrip.)
Post: #38
|
|||
|
|||
RE: Tagging classical music
(31-03-2014 10:27)Alpina_Lux Wrote: For example, I have around 60 recordings of Chopin's 1st piano concerto, among them probably two dozen by Martha Argerich alone. I need to be able to search for a specific recording of that work and distinguish live and studio recordings; I'd also like to see the label if it has been published. Dear fellow-German, you even beat me on that and I'm a pretty obsessive collector  (31-03-2014 10:27)Alpina_Lux Wrote: It seems that the following tags are required in that case: You could do it this way, which indeed would be the most accurate but also most complex way of doing things. You will probably find soon that you will have to spend excessive time keeping all those tags straight. I have taken a more simplistic approach by defining "Album" at "Composition" level. Which saves me a compsiotn tag and the Grouping feature. If I now have a hand full composition with the same soloist, I'd distinguish them in the "Album" tag as follows: Chopin: Klavierkonzert Nr 1 op. 11 - Zimmerman / Karajan Chopin: Klavierkonzert Nr 1 op. 11 - Zimmerman / Polish Festival Chopin: Klavierkonzert Nr 1 op. 11 - Argerich / Dutoit Chopin: Klavierkonzert Nr 1 op. 11 - Argerich / Abbado etc. etc. I use the "Date" tag to tag the date (usually just the year) of recording. Label I am also tagging as you suggest (some also use the "Organization" tag for it - dosnt really matter. Recording venue is not of such overwhelming importance to me so I dont tag that one. But just to give another example: I have a large collection of organ music, so I have defined a Tag "Organ" where I fill in the used Instrument (Silbermann-Orgel in the Freiberg Dom etc...). So indeed Minimserver is amazingly flexible and you can define any tag that best reflects your needs - just dont make it too complicated otherwise you'll spend more time tagging than listening... Viel Glück bbrip |
|||
|
|
|
31-03-2014, 17:30
Post: #39
|
|||
|
|||
RE: Tagging classical music
(31-03-2014 11:26)bbrip Wrote:I have been told quite a few times things like: "Why do you need SO many recordings of the same piece?" But I only have that many versions of a few pieces and with a few soloists. Also, most of these recordings fall in a time when I still had lots of time to record these things...(31-03-2014 10:27)Alpina_Lux Wrote: For example, I have around 60 recordings of Chopin's 1st piano concerto, among them probably two dozen by Martha Argerich alone. I need to be able to search for a specific recording of that work and distinguish live and studio recordings; I'd also like to see the label if it has been published. (31-03-2014 11:26)bbrip Wrote:Danke!(31-03-2014 10:27)Alpina_Lux Wrote: It seems that the following tags are required in that case: I have also thought about using the "Album" tag for compositions instead; and I've read that quite a few people do that, and that it is a very pragmatic way of organising the collection. It has the additional advantage of making the tagging less complex, and as you say the objective should be to listen to music and not to tag...  However, it also has the disadvantage of not allowing me to browse CDs by albums as they were sold or recorded. Now, that may not be so important in some cases, in others I believe it would be (at least to me, YMMV). Maybe I'm conservative in that but in my mind my collection is organised by albums similar to how they are being sold, and that's usually how I browse my collection. I think - without wanting to over-analyse this - that at some point I would miss not being able to browse the albums themselves. Also, with recitals or compilations (think of Hamelin's 'Composer Pianist' album for instance) I would like to listen to these in a row, which if I understood this approach correctly would be almost impossible. In addition, in case of live recitals where the artist or orchestra gives one or more encores, I would like to put these together in an 'album' in order to be able to find them together. Now it could certainly be argued that I would need to invest a lot of work for little added value...which might be quite true! I still think though that I'd be rather irritated at myself if down the line - say after tagging 100 CDs or so - I discover that I would absolutely love to have the feature of looking for compositions and albums separately. Food for thought - and thank you for your valuable input, it's great to see how others have approached these problems. |
|||
|
|
|
01-04-2014, 14:10
(This post was last modified: 01-04-2014 14:12 by bbrip.)
Post: #40
|
|||
|
|||
|
RE: Tagging classical music
Pleasure. Actually on live piano recitals I do deviate from above approach and I keep them as one Album to maintain the sense of occasion character.
ie: Jorge Bolet Live at Carnegie Hall 1982 Pletnev Live at Carnegie Hall 2001 Volodos Live In Vienna 2009 etc. etc. But even on orchestral live events you'll find that those have been taken from different concerts. Take as an example the late recording of Abbado / Argerich of Mozart PC 20+25. Its on one CD but this has actually been taken from two separate concerts in Lucerne (I know because I've been lucky enough to have been at one of them...). So I feel justified tagging them as two separate "Albums". However, I have defined a Genre 'Live-Recording' which will make it into my multitagged Genre so I will find back all live-recordings in my collection quickly As you say, its a matter of the right balance between pragmatism and perfection. I've given up trying to be perfect  just costs me too much time.bbrip |
|||
|
|
|
« Next Oldest | Next Newest »
|
User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)