Tagging classical music

[gnomus]

(28-04-2014 16:23)simoncn Wrote:  

(28-04-2014 16:18)gnomus Wrote:  1) If there are a large number of pieces (the 32 Beethoven Piano Sonatas being a good example), remember to start by using 'Piano Sonata No. 01' and not 'Piano Sonata No. 1'. I found this out the hard way (of course) and had to re-tag all my early Sonatas and String Quartets.

This won't be necessary with MinimServer update 25 (available now).

I wish you had told me that yesterday!!!!!

[mikejazz]

(27-04-2014 23:22)simoncn Wrote:  

(27-04-2014 22:27)gnomus Wrote:  For the avoidance of doubt you mean something like this and one or more of these? (I put two of these in my Synlogy.)

Sorry to be a pain, but I'd never heard of a "caddy" before.

This is the exact model that I have. I'm not sure whether Icy Dock and Icy Box are related companies. This type of device is fairly commonly referred to as a "caddy" but perhaps this isn't the correct technical term.

For backup purposes, I don't see any need for more than a single disk slot.

cool, I want one...seems perfect to backup my synology!
what a great idea! Sorry for OT!!

[DavidHB]

(28-04-2014 16:23)simoncn Wrote:  

(28-04-2014 16:18)gnomus Wrote:  1) If there are a large number of pieces (the 32 Beethoven Piano Sonatas being a good example), remember to start by using 'Piano Sonata No. 01' and not 'Piano Sonata No. 1'. I found this out the hard way (of course) and had to re-tag all my early Sonatas and String Quartets.

This won't be necessary with MinimServer update 25 (available now).

Nice! Thank you, Simon.

David

[DavidHB]

With MinimServer update 25 in mind (which is such an important release it is surprising that the version number was not advanced to 0.8.2), I have been re-reading the interesting discussion on the various methods of describing compositions and artists in metadata tags. Many thanks to all the contributors who provided thoughtful and informative contributions which IMO show the forum at its best. And thanks also to Simon, because without MinimServer much of the discussion would be academic.

Throughout the thread, it is a given that there is no one 'right' way to tag classical music. From the posts it also appears that most contributors regard their tagging system as work in progress, as I certainly do. The issue then arises as to how one selects between the various options, to suit one's own purposes and preferences. On this, I offer the following thoughts, in the hope that others might have useful contributions to make.

Firstly, I think we have to be realistic about what tagging and the associated indexing on the server can and cannot achieve. Sadly, there is no easy way to have digital music provide the amount of associated information we are used to getting on LP covers and in CD booklets. (The Bubble control points have an interesting means of associating a scanned .pdf file with a track, but the prospect of scanning hundreds or thousands of CD booklets is not one that most people will happily contemplate.) The metadata we store can, in practice, be used only for

• browsing or searching for tracks to add to the playlist;
• displaying details of the track on the 'now playing' screen (or equivalent) of the control point.
  

Unless we have realistic hopes that the features of our preferred control point will improve, there is little point in adding data that the control point will not use. With the capabilities MinimServer already provides, it is control points that will be the limiting factor for the foreseeable future; indeed one major improvement to a number of control points I have tried would be just to allow the display of the MinimServer browse tree as is, and without any caching.

Another factor which will affect our choice of tagging scheme is our own willingness and ability to impose order and consistency on the data. With classical music, this is quite a lot of work. Few of us would be without the online metadata libraries used by ripping programs such as dBpoweramp, but the fact remains that the downloaded data almost always requires a significant amount of editing by the user. For instance, if you want to browse your library by composer as I do, each composer's name has to be spelt consistently throughout the library - you have to decide whether you are going to use, say, Sergei Rachmaninov, Sergey Rachmaninov, Serge Rachmaninoff or Sergey Rakhmaninov (all of which are in use), and then stick to your choice. Thankfully, MP3Tag provides an easy means of applying a tag value to a whole selection (possibly hundreds) of tracks at once.

A third issue is the way in which different tags relate to each other. As metadata tags are not defined hierarchically or relationally, this may require information to be duplicated in several different tags in some instances but not in others. For instance, in my own scheme, I have do not include the composer name in album and track titles, but I typically do include the name of the work in the track title and in the Composition and Group tags. Decisions of this kind require assumptions to be made about how the data set as a whole is going to be browsed (or searched) and viewed. This is why the advice given earlier in this thread, that new users (or those reorganising a collection) should start by experimenting with a small number of albums, is so sensible. MinimServer Update 25 adds a whole host of new possibilities for creating these relationships between tags and for displaying tags in different ways.

I suppose that the key point I am making here, and which has at least been hinted at in previous discussion, is that the way we populate individual tags is a product of assumptions on how the data to be used and how, therefore, the tags relate to each other. These assumptions are usually developed over time; the data set associated with classical music is complex, and only a few fortunate people will know from the outset what tagging scheme best suits their needs. My own tagging pattern has reached the stage at which I know how I wish deal with composer and composition data, but am still uncertain as to precisely what place artist data occupies in the general scheme. I guess I am not alone in having aspects of my scheme that are better defined than others.

I hope these thoughts are useful.

David

[simoncn]

(30-04-2014 13:45)DavidHB Wrote:  With MinimServer update 25 in mind (which is such an important release it is surprising that the version number was not advanced to 0.8.2),

I thought about this and decided not to do it, for the following reasons:

1) Advancing the version number requires users to manually download and install a new version, which is significantly more work than accepting the automatic offer to install an update.

2) The new features in this update are almost entirely compatible with previous versions, so installing this update shouldn't be a disruptive experience. The only exception to full compatibility is the new numeric sorting facility (enabled by default). I'm not expecting this to cause problems and it can be easily disabled if any problems occur.

3) It's my current intention to use version advancement for changes that affect the installation process (which can't be made in an update), changes that are incompatible (such as the change to transcoding in 0.8.1) or changes to fundamental aspects of MinimServer.

Quote:I have been re-reading the interesting discussion on the various methods of describing compositions and artists in metadata tags.

........

I hope these thoughts are useful.

David

They are useful and I agree with your thoughts on how users can make best use of metadata in their libraries.

Another dimension in this discussion about metadata is the broader metadata ecosystem, which consists of (at least) the following elements:

1) Tagging of downloaded audio files by record companies
2) Online metadata databases
3) Ripper programs that use the online databases to tag audio files
4) Servers that read metadata from audio files (and possibly other sources)
5) Control points that get metadata from servers (and possibly other sources) and display this to the user
6) Protocols used by servers and control points to request and provide metadata
7) User preferences for how they want to organise their libraries and interact with metadata
8) Renderer facilities that involve the use of metadata for control purposes (e.g., replay gain)

At present, there are issues with each of the above, and there are many more issues with attempting to combine them into a consistent and convenient picture. This hobby of ours will not capture the hearts and minds of the CD-playing public until this whole ecosystem works far better than it does today.

MinimServer is a small contribution to item 4). It is far from perfect, but it is (I hope) a step in the right direction.

[bbrip]

DavidHB, you are quite right that the ControlPoints is one of the key limiting factor to the incredible possibilities we have at hand with the wonderful MinimServer. I mentioned that somewhere else on this forums just recently.

So the key question is: Is there any remedy coming up?

* I think LUMIN is pretty well positioned. It cant differentiate yet between DISPLAY and INDEX (sort) formats, so I unfortunately have to hold back until I can meaningfully use that very nice reverseName feature. Maybe this will be adressed. So far their support to new features has been pretty good.
* I am reading good things about Bubble DS, but its Android-only and I am not going to have an Android device in my household during this lifetime
* Songbook Lite: No support since 2+ years
* Chorus DS: No support since 2+ years
* LINN: I am absolutely stunned (in a negative way) what they are putting out with their Kazoo CP. This is just Kinsky - only with better looks: Slow, no advanced feature. To be fair, its still beta, but this will have to come a long, long way to become useful for classical music collectors in need of speed and flexibility.

So I guess what we need is another Simon who writes the perfect CP. Anyone out there volunteering?

bbrip

[gnomus]

(30-04-2014 13:45)DavidHB Wrote:  With MinimServer update 25 in mind (which is such an important release it is surprising that the version number was not advanced to 0.8.2), I have been re-reading the interesting discussion on the various methods of describing compositions and artists in metadata tags. ....
David

These are useful comments, David. I'm still a newcomer, of course, but I think I am pretty close to getting what I want from the tagging scheme that I have adopted. With only a few taps, I can find a piece of music, I can see how many versions of it I have; and I can choose one of those and get it playing. (I was surprised at how many times the Egmont Overture popped up as an extra on my CDs.) I can also choose something from a specific conductor, orchestra or singer within seconds. This is well beyond the functionality that I had [note use of past tense]with my CD collection.

The initial ripping and tagging job is a complete nightmare, but once I get through my library, I am hoping that adding the odd, new CD will not be too arduous.

The main issue, of course, is that I can (to my great surprise) get better quality than I can get from a CD player, but the functionality is a huge bonus.

Of course, I am still a newcomer and in the first rush of enthusiasm. However, the only thing I really miss is the album notes, cast list and libretto, although with my worsening eyesight reading the liner notes on a CD is getting pretty tough.

It seems to me that this "liner note" issue cannot be too difficult to get around - it is surely a Control Point issue. All I need is a way of tapping within the CP to bring up a PDF (or similar) of "liner notes" that I have associated with the "Composition" to which I am listening. I could, of course, do this outside of the CP, but having that little "button" would be awfully helpful.

Overall, however, this streaming business is pretty good.

[DavidHB]

Thank you, Simon.

(30-04-2014 14:52)simoncn Wrote:  

(30-04-2014 13:45)DavidHB Wrote:  With MinimServer update 25 in mind (which is such an important release it is surprising that the version number was not advanced to 0.8.2),

I thought about this and decided not to do it, for the following reasons ...

... It's my current intention to use version advancement for changes that affect the installation process (which can't be made in an update), changes that are incompatible (such as the change to transcoding in 0.8.1) or changes to fundamental aspects of MinimServer.

This makes very good sense to me, and trumps my 'feel' (which I hope you find encouraging) that the application has developed to the point at which, in terms of user experience, MinimServer has advanced to a new point.

(30-04-2014 14:52)simoncn Wrote:  

(30-04-2014 13:45)DavidHB Wrote:  I hope these thoughts are useful.

David

They are useful and I agree with your thoughts on how users can make best use of metadata in their libraries.

Thank you.

(30-04-2014 14:52)simoncn Wrote:  This hobby of ours will not capture the hearts and minds of the CD-playing public until this whole ecosystem works far better than it does today.

Absolutely. The full section of yours from which I am quoting out to be part of every new user's introduction to the hobby.

(30-04-2014 14:52)simoncn Wrote:  MinimServer is a small contribution to item 4). It is far from perfect, but it is (I hope) a step in the right direction.

For classical music fans like me, it is far more than that. It is proof that we do not need to be bound by the stultifying tyranny of the 'DNLA mentality' in which consumers are induced to like what manufacturers can easily supply, rather than what genuinely meets their needs.

David

[DavidHB]

@bbrip

I agree with pretty much all you say, or at least on those things on which I am able to form a view.

This is not the place to have an 'Android vs. iOS' discussion, which would probably be pretty arid in any case. Suffice to say that I feel about iOS very much as you feel about Android. Decent consumer choice really requires that an app. should support both systems (especially with the penetration Android has achieved in the smartphone market, because smartphones can be very good platforms for control points); it is a matter of great disappointment to me that neither Lumin nor Naim have an Android version of their app., and that the promised iOS versions of the Bubble apps. never made it to market.

As regards Bubble DS/UPnP, if you could get someone to demonstrate one of them to you on their tablet or phone, you could form your own view. I have it in mind to borrow my neighbour's iPad to try out the Lumin app, though judging by the material on the web, it is IMO less clever than Bubble in the way it uses screen space (though it is arguably prettier).

David

[simoncn]

(30-04-2014 21:21)DavidHB Wrote:  .... it is a matter of great disappointment to me that neither Lumin nor Naim have an Android version of their app., and that the promised iOS versions of the Bubble apps. never made it to market.

I am not sure this was ever promised by the Bubble* developer. I recall that you showed me a link to a third-party website that seemed to imply this, but I suspect this incorrect information originated with the third party.

I believe Bubble* is written in Java, which would mean there is no practical option for making it run on iOS. This also applies to MinimServer and MinimWatch.