DSD and Double-DSD testing with Pioneer receiver

[simoncn]

(08-04-2014 22:59)Cornell77 Wrote:  I will try these additional tests. I called Pioneer technical support and the questions were too esoteric for their tech support.

Some notes, Buffalo offers a 420 based NAS in Europe with a special version of Twonky that allows for dsf and dff streaming to Pioneer's receivers - or at least to their flagship receiver. With respect to this info, I found this post on the JRiver forum regarding streaming to the Oppo 103/105:

"OPPO BDP-103/105 has ability to play DSD stream via DLNA network. It works on Twonky DLNA server, after editing mime types to following:

For DFF files - audio/x-dff
For DSF files - audio/x-dsf

OPPO doesn't have ability to receive stream in DoPE format (white noise static is present). Is it possible to add following mime types for DLNA server for Oppo's?"

Perhaps this info would be helpful.

MinimServer is already setting these MIME types for DFF and DSF files. This allows native DSD streaming from MinimServer to the OPPO in "pull" mode but not "push" mode.

Does the special Buffalo version of Twonky support "push" streaming of native DSD or just "pull" streaming? If it supports "push" streaming, which control points are recommended for this?

[Cornell77]

On the Computer Audiophile forum, one user reported the following:

"EU-version SC-LX87 streams DSD64 2ch and DSD128 2ch from NAS using DoP, but I tried with a Buffalo Linkstation DS420 4TB with pre-installed Twonky 7."

I just sent the user a pm asking what control point software he was using. I hope he'll respond. His receiver has an asynchronous USB input, but is otherwise largely the same as the one I am using.

With regard to my testing last night:

1. Foobar2000 with the installed plug-ins would only recognize Minimserver very briefly. Therefore, I had no real test time in this area.

2. When playing back the files using Plugplayer and Kinsky, using no transcoding, and restarting Minimserver, neither Plugplayer or Kinsky started to play the files.

3. With dopwav transcoding selected, and Minimserver restarted, Kinsky put the standard DSD file in its playlist and the file plays. Hiss is output. Plugplayer generated an Error code 8.

For the next step, let's wait until I hear back from the Computer Audiophile user as this seems to be the best lead.

[Cornell77]

Here is a link to a translated German review of the Buffalo NAS/Twonky/Pioneer system:

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl...annel%3Dsb

[simoncn]

(09-04-2014 13:27)Cornell77 Wrote:  Here is a link to a translated German review of the Buffalo NAS/Twonky/Pioneer system:

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl...annel%3Dsb

Do you recognise the control app screenshot shown in this review? Is it the Pioneer control app? If so, this seems to indicate that DSD streaming for your receiver is limited to "pull" mode using the Pioneer control app.

[Cornell77]

I didn't recognize the image of the control app screenshot. When the image is downloaded, it is saved as a "Pioneer-SCLX-87-Kontroll-App...". Pioneer offers a Control App that you can see here:

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/H...ontrol+App

I believe that this is the app that was used in the review. The app looks like a slimmed down version of the dedicated Pioneer AV5 control app that I use for my Ipad. The Pioneer Control App above looks like it adds renderers for Pioneer wireless speakers and so on. So, perhaps the dsd files are being pushed.

This would seem to contradict the user's statement that:

"EU-version SC-LX87 streams DSD64 2ch and DSD128 2ch from NAS using DoP, but I tried with a Buffalo Linkstation DS420 4TB with pre-installed Twonky 7."

This Pioneer SC-LX87 owner has not yet replied to my pm.

Also, it seems that the Buffalo 420 NAS only offers the firmware/Twonky software download for this DSD playback in Europe and not the US.

Exploring the intricacy of these file compatibilities becomes quite an adventure game! I empathize with your role as a developer, as you must deal with this adventure on an ongoing basis.

[simoncn]

(09-04-2014 22:33)Cornell77 Wrote:  I didn't recognize the image of the control app screenshot. When the image is downloaded, it is saved as a "Pioneer-SCLX-87-Kontroll-App...". Pioneer offers a Control App that you can see here:

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/H...ontrol+App

I believe that this is the app that was used in the review. The app looks like a slimmed down version of the dedicated Pioneer AV5 control app that I use for my Ipad. The Pioneer Control App above looks like it adds renderers for Pioneer wireless speakers and so on. So, perhaps the dsd files are being pushed.

I have installed this app and it appears to be a remote control for the Pioneer receiver rather than a UPnP control point. This would mean the UPnP control point is in the receiver and the receiver is using "pull" mode, not "push" mode.

Quote:This would seem to contradict the user's statement that:

"EU-version SC-LX87 streams DSD64 2ch and DSD128 2ch from NAS using DoP, but I tried with a Buffalo Linkstation DS420 4TB with pre-installed Twonky 7."

This Pioneer SC-LX87 owner has not yet replied to my pm.

Also, it seems that the Buffalo 420 NAS only offers the firmware/Twonky software download for this DSD playback in Europe and not the US.

Exploring the intricacy of these file compatibilities becomes quite an adventure game! I empathize with your role as a developer, as you must deal with this adventure on an ongoing basis.

It isn't easy when I don't have access to the relevant equipment and the manufacturer specifications for the equipment are so lacking in technical detail.

[Cornell77]

At this point, I believe that Minimserver provides the equivalent DSD playback functionality of the specialized version of the Twonky server software that was customized for the Buffalo NAS in Europe.

I have not heard back from the Pioneer SC-LX87 owner.

Last night, I tried the Lumin control point software with Bubbleupnp installed. Lumin seems to be a DSD compliant control point, so I thought it would help eliminate the control point as a variable.

Once again, with dopwav transcoding set in Minimserver, the standard DSD files will play - but with hiss ultra-dominant. This time the music signal seems clearer - as if listening to a faint fm station.

Unless I make some additional discovery, I will be happy to use the pull mode. Before closing this entirely, if you had to ask one or two questions of Pioneer's technical support, what would they be?

Thanks for such timely and professional support in responding to this exploration.

[simoncn]

(10-04-2014 14:18)Cornell77 Wrote:  At this point, I believe that Minimserver provides the equivalent DSD playback functionality of the specialized version of the Twonky server software that was customized for the Buffalo NAS in Europe.

I have not heard back from the Pioneer SC-LX87 owner.

Last night, I tried the Lumin control point software with Bubbleupnp installed. Lumin seems to be a DSD compliant control point, so I thought it would help eliminate the control point as a variable.

Once again, with dopwav transcoding set in Minimserver, the standard DSD files will play - but with hiss ultra-dominant. This time the music signal seems clearer - as if listening to a faint fm station.

Unless I make some additional discovery, I will be happy to use the pull mode. Before closing this entirely, if you had to ask one or two questions of Pioneer's technical support, what would they be?

Thanks for such timely and professional support in responding to this exploration.

If the Pioneer is playing the DoP stream as PCM instead of DSD, you should hear a faint hiss. It is also possible that the audio signal could come through faintly.

My questions for Pioneer support would be:

1) When the Pioneer is acting as a UPnP renderer with an external UPnP control point, does it recognise and decode DoP-encoded WAV streams?

2) When the Pioneer is acting as a UPnP renderer with an external UPnP control point, does it recognise and decode DFF and DSF streams? If so, does it require a specific MIME type to be sent with these streams by the UPnP server for them to be recognised?