Sound quality comparison

[krutsch]

(30-08-2014 19:37)simoncn Wrote:  Please provide specific instructions for me to reproduce this.

1) What was your stream.transcode setting with MinimStreamer 0.4.1 or earlier? What was the input type and what streams did this show in BubbleUPnP?

2) What is your stream.transcode setting with MinimStreamer 0.4.2? What is the input type and what streams does this show in BubbleUPnP?

Well, for 2), it's as stated:

Quote:I tried some FLAC, MP3 and AAC tracks and they all transcode to wav24 (sounding great) and BubbleUPnP (control point) only displays one stream: Stream #1 WAV, 24 bits, stereo, blah, blah...

So, the stream.transcode = alac:wav24,flac:wav24,mp3:wav24,mp4:wav24

For 1) the stream.transcode was only:
stream.transcode = alac:wav24,flac:wav24

As for 0.4.1 and multiple streams, I would have to downgrade to the previous version to see the results; but I do recall seeing in the past both the wav24 version and the original (i.e. FLAC or ALAC) version in a second stream.

Do you need me to downgrade and repeat?

[simoncn]

(30-08-2014 20:02)krutsch Wrote:  Well, for 2), it's as stated:

So, the stream.transcode = alac:wav24,flac:wav24,mp3:wav24,mp4:wav24

For 1) the stream.transcode was only:
stream.transcode = alac:wav24,flac:wav24

As for 0.4.1 and multiple streams, I would have to downgrade to the previous version to see the results; but I do recall seeing in the past both the wav24 version and the original (i.e. FLAC or ALAC) version in a second stream.

Do you need me to downgrade and repeat?

I have tried flac:wav24 with a FLAC file and BubbleUPnP showed a single wav24 stream for both 0.4.2 and 0.4.1.

If you want to check this yourself, you need to downgrade MinimServer to update 35 as well as downgrading MinimStreamer to 0.4.1. This is because of a bug in update 36 which will be fixed soon.

[simoncn]

(30-08-2014 20:20)simoncn Wrote:  If you want to check this yourself, you need to downgrade MinimServer to update 35 as well as downgrading MinimStreamer to 0.4.1. This is because of a bug in update 36 which will be fixed soon.

This bug is now fixed in update 37. You can use update 37 with either 0.4.2 or 0.4.1.

[simoncn]

(30-08-2014 20:02)krutsch Wrote:  As for 0.4.1 and multiple streams, I would have to downgrade to the previous version to see the results; but I do recall seeing in the past both the wav24 version and the original (i.e. FLAC or ALAC) version in a second stream.

You can get this with 0.4.2 by using this transcoding combination:

flac:wav24/-

The dash at the end represents the original untranscoded FLAC stream. In BubbleUPnP, you will see the wav24 stream as #1 and the FLAC stream as #2.

As far as I know, this would not have been possible before 0.4.2.

Please install update 38 before trying this. It fixes a bug with the MIME type of the untranscoded stream.

[krutsch]

(31-08-2014 09:27)simoncn Wrote:  You can get this with 0.4.2 by using this transcoding combination:

flac:wav24/-

The dash at the end represents the original untranscoded FLAC stream. In BubbleUPnP, you will see the wav24 stream as #1 and the FLAC stream as #2.

So, I did this (cool!) and using BubbleUPnP Server (OpenHome) and the BubbleUPnP client as the control point and renderer (i.e. local renderer), with configured access via the Internet, I actually see three (3) streams:

Stream #1 WAV, 24 bits, ...

Stream #2 FLAC, 16 bits, ...

Stream #3 LPCM, 16 bits, ...

When I connect directly to a local instance of MinimServer (i.e. NOT through BubbleUPnP Server), I only see the first two (2) (i.e. NOT the LPCM version).

So, I then enabled the BubbleUPnP Server option to transcode all high-res audio to 44.1/16 or 48/16 FLAC. Then, the same tracks come across as

Stream #1 FLAC, 16 bits, ...

Stream #2 WAV, 24 bits, ...

Stream #3 FLAC, 16 bits, ...

Stream #4 LPCM, 16 bits, ...

Which is nice, because then when I am in the house, I use my streamers to access the wav24 version (by basically not connecting through the OpenHome server) and on the road, my remotely accessed streams are transcoded to FLAC 16.

It would be nice, however, if I could still use the Bubble OpenHome server in-house, because of the playlist management features.

[EDIT]: I made a mistake; the OpenHome function is still accessible without transcoding. I forgot that these functions are separate and I can still access the OpenHome version of the renderer (e.g. Denon (OpenHome)) without going through the BubbleUPnP server that enables remote access and transcoding. So, this is pretty close to what I want, minus the minor nitpick described below:

And, it would be nice if BubbleUPnP server *didn't* transcode the wav24 version back into FLAC, but it appears to do just that (stream #1 references the wav24 version in the URL). That is, look at the available streams and if one matches the transcoding parameters checked in the server config, just use it, rather than transcoding stream #1 by default.

It sounds like to make this really work, the control point needs to be configurable, such that it prefers one codec over another. Then, MinimStreamer can send both a wav24 version and the original FLAC/MP3/AAC version in a secondary stream, and the proxy server or control point picks the one that is both compatible and desired.

Are you in communication with the BubbleUPnP author? Because putting these two servers more closely together would top everything out there today, feature-wise. I'm sure you are aware of that, though...

Anyway, nice work!

[simoncn]

(31-08-2014 20:38)krutsch Wrote:  So, I did this (cool!) and using BubbleUPnP Server (OpenHome) and the BubbleUPnP client as the control point and renderer (i.e. local renderer), with configured access via the Internet, I actually see three (3) streams:

Stream #1 WAV, 24 bits, ...

Stream #2 FLAC, 16 bits, ...

Stream #3 LPCM, 16 bits, ...

Straam #3 is added by BubbleUPnP Server. I don't know whether there is a configuration option to control this.

Quote:When I connect directly to a local instance of MinimServer (i.e. NOT through BubbleUPnP Server), I only see the first two (2) (i.e. NOT the LPCM version).

It is simple to do this by using the setting:

flac:wav24/-/L16

Quote:So, I then enabled the BubbleUPnP Server option to transcode all high-res audio to 44.1/16 or 48/16 FLAC. Then, the same tracks come across as

Stream #1 FLAC, 16 bits, ...

Stream #2 WAV, 24 bits, ...

Stream #3 FLAC, 16 bits, ...

Stream #4 LPCM, 16 bits, ...

Which is nice, because then when I am in the house, I use my streamers to access the wav24 version (by basically not connecting through the OpenHome server) and on the road, my remotely accessed streams are transcoded to FLAC 16.

Which part of this wouldn't you be able to achieve by using MinimStreamer transcoding alone? You wouldn't have stream #3, but this is a duplicate of stream #1 and therefore redundant.

Quote:It would be nice, however, if I could still use the Bubble OpenHome server in-house, because of the playlist management features.

[EDIT]: I made a mistake; the OpenHome function is still accessible without transcoding. I forgot that these functions are separate and I can still access the OpenHome version of the renderer (e.g. Denon (OpenHome)) without going through the BubbleUPnP server that enables remote access and transcoding. So, this is pretty close to what I want, minus the minor nitpick described below:

And, it would be nice if BubbleUPnP server *didn't* transcode the wav24 version back into FLAC, but it appears to do just that (stream #1 references the wav24 version in the URL). That is, look at the available streams and if one matches the transcoding parameters checked in the server config, just use it, rather than transcoding stream #1 by default.

Can't you achieve exactly that by using MinimStreamer transcoding instead of BubbleUPnP Server transcoding?

Quote:It sounds like to make this really work, the control point needs to be configurable, such that it prefers one codec over another. Then, MinimStreamer can send both a wav24 version and the original FLAC/MP3/AAC version in a secondary stream, and the proxy server or control point picks the one that is both compatible and desired.

The control point should do this already. The streams are ordered and the control point should pick the first one that matches the renderer capabilities. What is the scenario where this doesn't do what you want?

Quote:Are you in communication with the BubbleUPnP author? Because putting these two servers more closely together would top everything out there today, feature-wise. I'm sure you are aware of that, though...

I would like to eventually extend the capabilities of MinimServer to do some of what BubbleUPnP Server is currently doing, rather than working to integrate these together in some way.

Quote:Anyway, nice work!

Thanks very much!

[krutsch]

(31-08-2014 21:31)simoncn Wrote:  

Quote:So, I then enabled the BubbleUPnP Server option to transcode all high-res audio to 44.1/16 or 48/16 FLAC. Then, the same tracks come across as

Stream #1 FLAC, 16 bits, ...
Stream #2 WAV, 24 bits, ...
Stream #3 FLAC, 16 bits, ...
Stream #4 LPCM, 16 bits, ...

Which is nice, because then when I am in the house, I use my streamers to access the wav24 version (by basically not connecting through the OpenHome server) and on the road, my remotely accessed streams are transcoded to FLAC 16.

Quote:Which part of this wouldn't you be able to achieve by using MinimStreamer transcoding alone? You wouldn't have stream #3, but this is a duplicate of stream #1 and therefore redundant.

<snip, snip>

Can't you achieve exactly that by using MinimStreamer transcoding instead of BubbleUPnP Server transcoding?

The control point should do this already. The streams are ordered and the control point should pick the first one that matches the renderer capabilities. What is the scenario where this doesn't do what you want?

it's the first part that I bolded above. I want transcoding to wav24 when accessed locally (i.e. using a local 192.168.1.xx) address, which means addressing the local MinimServer directly, as opposed to proxying through BubbleUPnP server.

When I am traveling or at work, I am playing back on an Android device that really only wants 16 CD/CD+ audio (i.e. 16/44.1 or 16/48). My Android devices can play wav24, just fine, but it's a lot more data to send over the Internet to just have the phone truncate the least significant bits on playback (or worse, down-sample the high-res stuff, which is very CPU intensive on the phone).

I can do all of this using MinimStream, alone, I think, but then I need to reconfigure stream.transcode options when I am at home or at work/on the road.

[simoncn]

(01-09-2014 01:25)krutsch Wrote:  it's the first part that I bolded above. I want transcoding to wav24 when accessed locally (i.e. using a local 192.168.1.xx) address, which means addressing the local MinimServer directly, as opposed to proxying through BubbleUPnP server.

When I am traveling or at work, I am playing back on an Android device that really only wants 16 CD/CD+ audio (i.e. 16/44.1 or 16/48). My Android devices can play wav24, just fine, but it's a lot more data to send over the Internet to just have the phone truncate the least significant bits on playback (or worse, down-sample the high-res stuff, which is very CPU intensive on the phone).

I can do all of this using MinimStream, alone, I think, but then I need to reconfigure stream.transcode options when I am at home or at work/on the road.

Thanks! I understand the scenario now and I will think about how it could be supported better by a future release of MinimServer and MinimStreamer.