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simoncn · 13-01-2015, 17:00

(13-01-2015 16:43)Martin H Wrote: Aha - I may have missed a post. You mention needing the root password. So are you uploading minimserver onto it?

Yes, I did this to test whether it would be technically possible to get MinimServer to run on the Melco.

Martin H · 13-01-2015, 17:16

Thanks Simon. I really like minimserver and TB really don't like Twinky (sic) and would be nervous about having to use it. I thought perhaps you were running a copy of minimserver on the box itself but was the password only necessary to change some data entry for the server or what exactly?

Not going to change anything now or in the trial but just keen to understand what it might mean if I own one of these by Monday - I always start with great intentions of settling for how it is but hear something better and I am undone.

Martin H · 13-01-2015, 17:21

Oops you beat me to it. I am guessing running minimserver on the box itself would be the best option.
You referenced that it was similar off the box too? i.e. there was a perceptible difference?

I think that for now I will assess it based on is it worth it as sold and maybe using minimserver from the network but look at moving minimserver onto the box itself if there is a significant benefit and I guess if there was there might be a specific version available?

simoncn · 13-01-2015, 20:00

(13-01-2015 17:21)Martin H Wrote: Oops you beat me to it. I am guessing running minimserver on the box itself would be the best option.
You referenced that it was similar off the box too? i.e. there was a perceptible difference?

There was a small perceptible difference in favour of running MinimServer *off* the Melco box. My guess is that reducing the CPU load on the Melco box has a slight beneficial effect.

Quote:I think that for now I will assess it based on is it worth it as sold and maybe using minimserver from the network but look at moving minimserver onto the box itself if there is a significant benefit and I guess if there was there might be a specific version available?

At present, Melco do not provide the option of putting MinimServer on the box. If this is a "deal breaker" for you, you should mention it to your Melco dealer. Smile

Martin H · 13-01-2015, 20:04

(13-01-2015 20:00)simoncn Wrote:
(13-01-2015 17:21)Martin H Wrote: ....

......

Quote:I think that for now I will assess it based on is it worth it as sold and maybe using minimserver from the network but look at moving minimserver onto the box itself if there is a significant benefit and I guess if there was there might be a specific version available?

At present, Melco do not provide the option of putting MinimServer on the box. If this is a "deal breaker" for you, you should mention it to your Melco dealer.

Sounds like a plan Smile

Will post when I have had the demo. Looking forward to it even more now Smile

Martin H · 16-01-2015, 18:41

(13-01-2015 20:04)Martin H Wrote: [quote='simoncn' pid='13263' dateline='1421175645']
[quote='Martin H' pid='13258' dateline='1421166062']
....

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Quote:Will post when I have had the demo. Looking forward to it even more now

My strong warning before reading is that this is more of a description of events and I would urge you NOT to draw any conclusions from this. LONG POST

OK this is a preliminary post because this afternoon was inconclusive.
Unfortunately I woke up with a cold and a thumping headache which were both going strong during the demo. This was never going to help the listening process.
We had a few stumbles in the setup process which wasn't particularly difficult but in my man flu (it isn't the flu but) state I first of all plugged the Exakt cable into the Melco - which did not harm but not likely to see the LAN that way - hmmmm.

Re connected everything and Reset the boxes etc. but had a weird period where Konfig kept losing sight of the Klimax DSM (exakt - whatever that's called now). The Melco wasn't highlighting the drives properly either. I won't list it all out but it was a case of now you see it now you don't all around. There was some queston over whether the Melco and DS were turned on in the right order too.

At that point we decided to reconnect everything and start again on the grounds of - even if the boxes weren't confused, we were following my bad start and I list the above in case it happens elsewhere but I suspect it won't occur regularly.

Having reset everything - things did start to work OK and we demo'ed Melco playing from it's disk using the in-built Twonky and then by using the Melco but served by minimserver on the QNAP. We then compared all of these with the current set-up of minimserver on the QNAP to the DS without the Melco involved.

I am not sure if it was my cold, the confusion before but I finished simply not being sure if there was a material difference, which way any benefit might be and even whether it was a consistent benefit.

We played these tracks repeatedly

24 bit versions (except jamiesaysmile) of

Stevie Wonder's:
-----Love's in Need of Love Today (SITKOL 1)
----- Superstition
Kate Bush
----- Running Up The Hill (HOL)
jamiesaysmile
----- Mint Green (Outside Now - EP)
Joni Mitchell
----- All I want
Eva Cassidy
----- Songbird (S)

My trusted dealer - who I genuinely trust more than anyone I know on this topic and with my cash - was with us (wife and I) and he was genuinely surprised I was uncertain as he had thought every track was clearer and noticeably so. I hear the cynics nodding and thinking, "I bet he was" but as I say I trust him and have never known him to be wrong. I suspect he is right this time but I couldn't be certain. Some things sounded different we thought but my wife and I both independently thought something didn't sound quite right with Superstition in the crowded middle section. I hesitate to describe it in more detail as I am more of a 'it's right or wrong/worse or better' sort of chap and too often without the right words. We did 'lose' the DS a few times on the ipad after that which was disconcerting but i can't be certain why.

Anyway a long story captured for posterity.

There is a further context and that is what did I expect beforehand. Well logically - not a lot.

If you have a dodgy or extended network or one that is overloaded/extended - some odd and disconnected power supplies etc. then it seems obvious that putting the files source adjacent to the player allows the best result with minimal overhead on the boxes themselves and obviates your network problem.

Countering that - I struggle to see how the design of the Linn wouldn't anyway already compensate by buffering things. Also data is a 0 or a 1 and data has a bit check (apologies if I use the wrong label) and so I can see how the music might stop due to network issues but I am unclear how it's quality can be impacted. But there may be a rational explanation as there was when we moved from CD to DS and got an up-lift due to the removal of the transport.

So despite the above - my experience is that I don't care about the logic if I can hear a difference because it probably means that I don't know all the facts and logic is irrelevant.

So where does that leave me - open-minded. I hear folk on here reference an uplift and my trusted dealer and his equally trusted colleagues do the same. I think there is something that I need to discover and understand and so I am asking for a short term loan of a box so that I can test it to death to determine the answer. As ever my dealer is such a rock star that has agreed to do that despite having driven across today.

So I will update further but keen to hear any other experiences in the meantime.

simoncn · 16-01-2015, 20:16

(16-01-2015 18:41)Martin H Wrote: So I will update further but keen to hear any other experiences in the meantime.

Thanks very much for sharing this. Were you listening to the N1A or N1Z?

I don't think the difference with the Melco is caused by "closeness" or by any difference in the 1s and 0s. The player port on the Melco provides full optical isolation for the LAN connection to the player and I think this is the main reason for the difference.

My setup is considerably different from yours:
1) I have a KDS/1, not any kind of DSM
2) I don't have Exakt
3) I am still on Davaar 4.1.10 firmware
4) I am using MinimStreamer to transcode FLAC to WAV with padding to 24 bits
5) Nearly all my listening is to classical music

Any or all of these could make a difference to the "Melco effect". My guess is that the most significant difference is that you have Exakt, which means the Melco isolated output isn't connected directly to the the box containing the DAC, as it is in my system.

Martin H · 17-01-2015, 01:39

(16-01-2015 20:16)simoncn Wrote:
(16-01-2015 18:41)Martin H Wrote: So I will update further but keen to hear any other experiences in the meantime.

Thanks very much for sharing this. Were you listening to the N1A or N1Z?

I don't think the difference with the Melco is caused by "closeness" or by any difference in the 1s and 0s. The player port on the Melco provides full optical isolation for the LAN connection to the player and I think this is the main reason for the difference.

My setup is considerably different from yours:
1) I have a KDS/1, not any kind of DSM
2) I don't have Exakt
3) I am still on Davaar 4.1.10 firmware
4) I am using MinimStreamer to transcode FLAC to WAV with padding to 24 bits
5) Nearly all my listening is to classical music

Any or all of these could make a difference to the "Melco effect". My guess is that the most significant difference is that you have Exakt, which means the Melco isolated output isn't connected directly to the the box containing the DAC, as it is in my system.

Simon,

I will do some more reading I think to make sure that I really understand what the benefits of the box are as I am not sure I totally understand your points but I have probably misunderstood the box's rationale.

Re the kit we were using was 350As and an upgraded DS (whatever it is) up to Exakt. With up to date firmware and the system 'tuned' to the room. We rarely listen to classical but have a selection. So primarily any music from 60's to today with an increasing smattering of nostalgia from my childhood plus a fledgling Jazz interest.

Intrigued as to why you do point 4. Doesn't the streamer convert it anyway or does this bring a benefit? If so I better sort that out as it has passed me by.

Re your points

- I think the first key one is that you are saying there is an optical break that must mean it is engineered in 2 halves and bridged with 'light' so that no electrical 'interference' from the network can be passed through it? Bit dumb but I think probably read that but missed the point. Thank you. If this is the nub of the improvement aren't there optical switches or something that allow you to do the same thing? I guess not.

- the last point is the one that has me bemused at first but I think I get it. In your setup the Melco is into the DS1 which houses the DACS but in Exakt the DACS are in the speakers, which they reach over a further length of ethernet cable albeit not using TCP etc. but instead a LINN bespoke version (I think).

The separation from the main network is the same but there might some difference due to that extra cable etc. which replaces a 'internal cable or circuit within your DS1.

Although the latter is a difference that 'split' is engineered by Linn to improve the sound and we definitely 'heard' that difference before the upgrade and we are getting the uplift today. So I can't imagine that would negate the Melco benefit of separation. But as you can probably tell I am scrambling to get my head around it still only hearing of it on the phone a week ago.

I appreciate the helpful responses - as ever. I will keep the faith for now and pursue the demo as I believe there is something here.

I do love minimserver and would miss it terribly and so that is another reason not to pursue full implementation of this too hard.

simoncn · 17-01-2015, 12:08

(17-01-2015 01:39)Martin H Wrote: Intrigued as to why you do point 4. Doesn't the streamer convert it anyway or does this bring a benefit? If so I better sort that out as it has passed me by.

Many MinimServer users have found that doing this conversion in the server instead of the player improves the sound. There is not yet a complete technical understanding of what causes this. One theory is that offloading this processing from the player's CPU is beneficial for sound quality.

Quote:- I think the first key one is that you are saying there is an optical break that must mean it is engineered in 2 halves and bridged with 'light' so that no electrical 'interference' from the network can be passed through it? Bit dumb but I think probably read that but missed the point. Thank you. If this is the nub of the improvement aren't there optical switches or something that allow you to do the same thing? I guess not.

I have not been able to find any switches with internal optical isolation between two copper RJ45 ports. It would be possible to use an optical switch with fibre ports connected to fibre to RJ45 converters.

Another point to consider is that the Melco N1Z has a dedicated high-quality power supply for the network connection as well as an optically isolated port. The N1A has an isolated port but not the special power supply. Did you listen to the N1Z or the N1A?

Quote:- the last point is the one that has me bemused at first but I think I get it. In your setup the Melco is into the DS1 which houses the DACS but in Exakt the DACS are in the speakers, which they reach over a further length of ethernet cable albeit not using TCP etc. but instead a LINN bespoke version (I think).

The separation from the main network is the same but there might some difference due to that extra cable etc. which replaces a 'internal cable or circuit within your DS1.

Yes, that's what I am saying. Isolating an intermediate cable might not provide the same improvement as isolating the final cable.

Quote:Although the latter is a difference that 'split' is engineered by Linn to improve the sound and we definitely 'heard' that difference before the upgrade and we are getting the uplift today. So I can't imagine that would negate the Melco benefit of separation. But as you can probably tell I am scrambling to get my head around it still only hearing of it on the phone a week ago.

I am not quite clear which "difference" and which "upgrade" you are referring to. I think you probably mean the "difference" between non-Exakt and Exakt and the "upgrade" of adding the Melco, but I am not sure.

If this is what you mean, I would expect the Exakt difference to be equally audible with the Melco as it is without the Melco. My point is that the Melco difference might not be as audible with Exakt as it is without Exakt.

Quote:I do love minimserver and would miss it terribly and so that is another reason not to pursue full implementation of this too hard.

I am in discussion with Melco about this. If there is any news, I will let you know.

simoncn · 17-01-2015, 14:04

I tried connecting the Melco to my "other" renderer. This is a Raspberry Pi with a Wolfson audio card, running RuneAudio with UPnP support enabled. The before/after difference from using the Melco is even more noticeable with this renderer (total cost less than $100) than it is with my Linn DS.