new setup across vlans/subnets

[Neo]

Hi,

I’m not sure if I should be asking here or in the bubbleupnp or peplink forums. There’s a bit of a story to explain where I am and apologies if this is the wrong place.

I have a number of vlans and different subnets and grouped my devices.
my NAS is in one VLAN. The Gateway 192.168.1.9/29
my pc is in another VLAN. The Gateway 192.168.1.33/27

I have intervlan routing enabled. I can see the nas and login just fine using a browser and the lan ip adddress of the nas (I have firewall rules on the router to inhibit vlans talking and these are disabled while trying to get this problem solved)

The problem I have is trying to use minimserver and bubbleupnp server (both on the NAS) bubbleupnp client on a tablet.
minimserver says its running. Bubbleupnp server sees minimserver as an active media server.
I can get the tablet on another vlan for wifi devices to connect. bubbleupnp client can log in to bubbleupnp server but I cannot see any media to play even though its there in a folder indexed by minimserver.
I've spent a long time trying to get it to work and then thought to try minimwatch - perhaps the problem of no media listed was there.

I cannot get minimwatch to connect to minimserver.
Java is allowed through the firewall (I've tried windows firewall disabled too). The synology firewall is turned off while i test
For the ohnet.subnet option ..... If I use the subnet that the pc is in, minimwatch cannot see the server (even though I’m logged in to the nas with that pc)
If I use the subnet that the nas is in, minimwatch says the subnet is not found

I just don’t understand why it cannot see the server when I’m already connected across the vlans and logged in to the nas. My lan side routing must work ok

Then I read about problems with upnp across different networks/subnets and I’m guessing that this might be a problem I will encounter a bit further down the road.

It feels a bit like I might have a few issues to solve and I’m not sure if any of it can be fixed by adjusting settings on the router or it's an improper setup of minimserver or bubbleupnp

Is anyone aware of a useful setting that helps with upnp streaming when a nas is in one network and the player/renderer control points are in other networks?

[simoncn]

MinimServer doesn't support access from other subnets. BubbleUPnP Server enables this capability for remote access across the internet, so I would expect it to be able to provide local access from a different subnet.

I don't have this setup myself and I don't recall any previous discussions on the MinimServer forum that have described how to make this work.

[Neo]

Thanks for the reply.

Its so frustrating. I don't know where the issue is and I'm going round in circles. Not being familiar with any of these apps and never having had any of these elements working just means it could be any of them.
I thought by installing minimwatch, I could at least rule out 1 element, but was presented with more problems.

But it sounds hopeful that through using bubbleupnpserver I can perhaps treat my vlans/subnets as an internet connection.

My home lan is more complex than most I guess... with 10 vlans, 4 wifis, trunk ports feeding powelines with managed switches on the end, dns queries handled by a pi-hole
But I wouldn't sacrifice the setup for anything.

I thought this would be the easier bit and was leaving the internet connection with a phone running grapheneos till later which will definitely present more problems as many apps won't work properly because the OS has been degoogled, but now I'm questioning everything. Ooooooph

[simbun]

Enabling inter vlan traffic by itself probably won't help with discovery as that's a broadcast thing. What you need to look into is repeating SSDP broadcast messages.
Having said that I tried this a few years ago now on Ubiquiti gear, and whilst I got mDNS working across subnets (Google smart speakers accessing a UPnP server and Sonos accessing online services via mDNS) I was never able to get pure UPnP working; but I don't know whether it was a limitation of Ubiquiti, UPnP or my patience though :-)

[bubbleguuum]

BubbleUPnP Server allows you to access UPnP media servers running on network, from a different network, bypassing SSDP discovery which cannot be used in that scenario. Usually this is used for accessing your home LAN media servers from a different network across the Internet, but it should also work accross vlans on a home network. If BubbleUPnP Server detects MinimServer, simply connect (in Android BubbleUPnP) to BubbleUPnP Server's LAN ip address (assuming your Android device can reach BubbleUPnP Server).

[Neo]

Thanks for the replies
patience is a much needed commodity and it looks like I've had a bit of a boost.
God only knows what I've done but the tablet can see minimserver and play locally on bubbleupnp and they are in different vlans/subnets. Thats a massive win for me. I couldn't get the content of the library to be visible up till now (even though it could see the server itself).
I was really doubting everything. Like was there something I needed to do with minimserver? and not having a pc in that subnet means no minimwatch, was it my network config, a tablet setting, something in the nas, something with bubbleupnp server, did I need a upnp proxy. I didn't know which bits were working well or where to start.

I was starting to think about other options like webdav with cloudbeats or using music player daemon which would have probably been another learning curve to start

It must be playing across the subnets as all my port fowarding rules along with upnp / nat pmp are turned off. There's no internet access to my nas at all.
I've been fiddling with the settings on the tablet, Ive had apps that like all the network/location stuff enabled before so turned them on, and also in bubbleupnp there was a browsing mode - default, method 1 and method 2, currently on method 2. Not a clue if thats made a difference
The vlans that need to talk have intervlan enabled with some fairly loose firewall rules at the mo.
I disabled igmp snooping on the switches - they only allowed one vlan to be specified and I think if I want this function I'll need better switches that can perform this on multiple vlans.

I think I need to get a pi setup on the server lan just so I can use minimwatch - the minimserver config page loaded through the nas is kinda frustrating - it says its running but displays so little else in the way of detail or configs to change/try
Long road ahead to get it all working. Foobar on the office pc cant see anything, the pi running volumio hasnt been tried or any of the other stuff around the house, then there will be remote access, and maybe sort out the music itself too lol

[simbun]

(28-03-2021 15:32)Neo Wrote:  I think I need to get a pi setup on the server lan just so I can use minimwatch - the minimserver config page loaded through the nas is kinda frustrating - it says its running but displays so little else in the way of detail or configs to change/try

The web based config page at the moment is largely for licensing and profile administration, but the plan is for it to eventually replace the need for MinimWatch.

I'm not sure how you've got the tablet running BubbleUPnP to access the BubbleUPnP server on another vlan unless you've configured the 'Internet access with BubbleUPnP Server' section of the app as bubbleguuum, I think, alluded to in his previous reply?
Either way, this appears only possible because you're using BubbleUPnP and the BubbleUPnP server, so I don't think you've broken the back of it yet.
If the tablet with the BubbleUPNP app is going to be on the same vlan as a UPnP speaker then I think you should be fine with sending music to that (once you've set up firewall rules allowing the speaker to access MinimServer content on 9790), but I don't think it'll be possible to control or see it from another vlan. Likewise, I don't think you'll be able to see your music from the PC.

I hope I'm wrong on all fronts and would love to hear from you if you do get this all working.

[Neo]

(28-03-2021 20:52)simbun Wrote:  

(28-03-2021 15:32)Neo Wrote:  I think I need to get a pi setup on the server lan just so I can use minimwatch - the minimserver config page loaded through the nas is kinda frustrating - it says its running but displays so little else in the way of detail or configs to change/try

The web based config page at the moment is largely for licensing and profile administration, but the plan is for it to eventually replace the need for MinimWatch.

I'm not sure how you've got the tablet running BubbleUPnP to access the BubbleUPnP server on another vlan unless you've configured the 'Internet access with BubbleUPnP Server' section of the app as bubbleguuum, I think, alluded to in his previous reply?
Either way, this appears only possible because you're using BubbleUPnP and the BubbleUPnP server, so I don't think you've broken the back of it yet.
If the tablet with the BubbleUPNP app is going to be on the same vlan as a UPnP speaker then I think you should be fine with sending music to that (once you've set up firewall rules allowing the speaker to access MinimServer content on 9790), but I don't think it'll be possible to control or see it from another vlan. Likewise, I don't think you'll be able to see your music from the PC.

I hope I'm wrong on all fronts and would love to hear from you if you do get this all working.

Yep, I used the Internet access with BubbleUPnP Server -and set the host to be the LAN address of the NAS with 4 allow rules in the router.

Getting the tablet working really was just an attempt to get something working and understand things a bit more. If I play from it, at least for now it will just be locally on the tablet as I don't think I have any upnp speakers yet.
I had a nas sitting aorund for years and never really used it properly and I wanted one central media repository with common playlist - the amount of times I've sat making smart playlists in itunes to then lose it all in an upgrade or switch to something different is not worth thinking about.

I have my phone working now too which is running degoogled android, so good to know the app still works. AuroraStore said it needed the Google Services Framework (possibly just for the payment)
I used the same method for Internet connection, but made 2 connections - home - using wifi and local ip address:http port
roaming - using mobile or wifi and my domain name:https port

Works like a charm so far and there seems like theres a load of options to toy with. So thats 2 devices done.
One minor bugbear is I wanted the full version and paid for it using the tablet and play store, but there was no way to transfer that to the degoogled phone. So I had to install the Amazon app store to buy the license again lol. But it hasn't registered the purchase through Amazon.

So next will be a pi running volumio and then foobar for my office pc and laptop - I'm guessing I just map a network drive and do it that way for the pc and laptop? And do an nfs share for volumio? Theres no interaction between foobar or volumio and minimserver?

The laptop and office pc will be local players and have an O2 headphone amp and heaphones/small speakers
The volumio is running on a pi in a nanosound one case/config wired to a denon hifi. So for these I just need a way to have them use the same playlists/library once they are created.

One common library with neat meta data, and shared playlists that can self-update when new media is added to the library. I think thats the goal

[simbun]

(28-03-2021 22:24)Neo Wrote:  So next will be a pi running volumio and then foobar for my office pc and laptop - I'm guessing I just map a network drive and do it that way for the pc and laptop? ANd do an nfs share for volumio? Theres no interaction between foobar or volumio and minimserver?

Good choice of tools, I use both :-)

A default installation of Volumio will install it as a UPnP renderer (amongst other things), so you'll be able to control it by BubbleUPnP from the tablet (depending upon what vlan they're both on). I'm also pretty sure that by default it's an OpenHome renderer so you won't need to use the BubbleUPnP server to proxy it (OpenHome functionality means the renderer holds the music queue so the control point isn't required beyond the initial "play to").

I use foobar for all my music metadata management so I have my master library on the PC, I then perform backups to Ubuntu, and sync the music to a Pi hosting MinimServer and BubbleUPnP for music playback.
If you're just using foobar as a player, bubbleguuum did produce a foobar component that integrates with BubbleUPnP server and still works quite well. It's no longer maintained, with the latest update from 2015, but with so few good control points for Windows, it's still an option.
If you want to use foobar for metadata management too, then yes, a NFS/Samba share to the PC would be required if your only copy is on the NAS.

Wherever you're accessing your music you really want to try and make it via MinimServer as you'll miss out on the rich browsing experience otherwise.

[Neo]

(29-03-2021 09:01)simbun Wrote:  

(28-03-2021 22:24)Neo Wrote:  So next will be a pi running volumio and then foobar for my office pc and laptop - I'm guessing I just map a network drive and do it that way for the pc and laptop? ANd do an nfs share for volumio? Theres no interaction between foobar or volumio and minimserver?

Good choice of tools, I use both :-)

A default installation of Volumio will install it as a UPnP renderer (amongst other things), so you'll be able to control it by BubbleUPnP from the tablet (depending upon what vlan they're both on). I'm also pretty sure that by default it's an OpenHome renderer so you won't need to use the BubbleUPnP server to proxy it (OpenHome functionality means the renderer holds the music queue so the control point isn't required beyond the initial "play to").

I use foobar for all my music metadata management so I have my master library on the PC, I then perform backups to Ubuntu, and sync the music to a Pi hosting MinimServer and BubbleUPnP for music playback.
If you're just using foobar as a player, bubbleguuum did produce a foobar component that integrates with BubbleUPnP server and still works quite well. It's no longer maintained, with the latest update from 2015, but with so few good control points for Windows, it's still an option.
If you want to use foobar for metadata management too, then yes, a NFS/Samba share to the PC would be required if your only copy is on the NAS.

Wherever you're accessing your music you really want to try and make it via MinimServer as you'll miss out on the rich browsing experience otherwise.

Thanks for the tips
I like the idea of having a master copy backed up and synced - it doesn't make sense to only have one copy on the nas. If I lose that, will be bad.
I think I might struggle to have every device access the music via miniserver.
I attached a basic layout of the network. Each colour is a different subnet/vlan. Grey is trunk and they are all isolated unless I've set specific rules for something I need. I would need to make an SSID for each wired lan and then have a tablet in each using bubbleupnp to bridge the gap. I think. Or maybe look into some kind of upnp proxy devices, which might just be ott

Can I ask a question about minimserver.
What does it actually do? does it manage the music library in anyway? like will the file structure be changed/reorganised? Or the meta data changed in any way? Is it purely how it is presented/searched?

I'm just thinking that if the music directory is in a good state, nicely organised and meta data all accurate, I think I could just settle with an nfs share for volumio and use firewall rules to allow my mobile to have a http connection to the volumio and control it that way. Seems like a lot less work although will that mean I'll need to have volumio specific playlists created?
I'm hoping that can be something common at some point