Tagging classical music

[DavidHB]

(14-04-2014 17:42)Alpina_Lux Wrote:  I have heard several times that the combination between MinimServer and BubbleUPnP works very well. Although I initially wanted to use my iPad as a control point (simply because I have it and know how to use it, and the Synology apps work well on it), I would be happy to switch to an Android device if it works even better. Would you mind describing a bit your experience with this combination and browsing through your classical collection? Any input in this to bring my decision process a bit further would be most appreciated.

Actually, working with different control points has for me been one of the most interesting parts of the journey of discovery that getting into networked music has become.

I think that there is much to be said for experimenting, as you have done, first with aspects of tagging, then with MinimServer properties to 'tune' the browse tree, then with control point settings to display as much tagging information as is sensible and in the way you want to see it. It's an iterative process, because changes in one aspect of the system will have knock-on effects elsewhere. I also think that it's quite personal; if it feels right for you, then it is right, whether or not someone else is doing something completely different.

My decision making process came out of this kind of trial and error, but also out of some personal prejudices which set the scene for me. I think I must be the only person on the planet who does not generally enjoy using Apple devices, and so I really only became interested in handheld computing (which makes so much more sense of the control point, as a handheld can be a viable 'remote control' for a music system) when Android reached a certain level of maturity and smoothness in use. While sound quality was the overriding consideration in purchasing the Linn equipment I now own, an important factor was the fact that there was an Android version of Kinsky, which seemed, when I started out, to be a rather attractive piece of software.

I tried several control points. While foobar2000 had its place on the PC platform, it wasn't an alternative to Kinsky for controlling the Linn renderer (though it can do this), as there is in practice no handheld version. UPnPlayer cannot (I think) control an external renderer, and I couldn't get on with the user interface. Then spending the princely sum of £8.50 enabled me to take a hard look at Bubble DS, which I had read about on several forums.

For those who don't know, Bubble DS is designed only to work with Linn systems and compatibles; for other renderers, there is Bubble UPnP. The two products are, as far as I know, nearly identical in terms of functionality. They are available only for Android; iOS versions were promised at one time, but have never made it to market, which is a pity.

At first, I thought that Bubble was just OK, as functional as Kinsky but not as elegant. Over time, I have come to believe that it is in fact a much better control point. The key advantage is the use of a tabbed page design consistently for all aspects of the product; this makes much better use of limited screen real estate, which means that more of our precious metadata is displayed. By contrast, the columnar design of Kinsky truncates much more of each tag. Moreover, the 'Now Playing' display, which is a bit of a scabbed on afterthought in Kinsky, is an integral part of the Bubble design, and provides a full set of transport controls, which is very useful. And Bubble offers much more than Kinsky by way of display options, and so gives you better access to MinimServer's elegant and fully-featured browse tree.

Bubble DS has become my default control point for normal listening. I still use Kinsky and foobar2000 on the PC platform, mainly for testing metadata changes and newly ripped material. but it is the combination of MinimServer and Bubble DS that makes sense of my system for me. If I had not known about their existence and had the opportunity to experiment beforehand, I doubt that I would have made the significant investment involved in buying the Linn renderer.

I believe that it is the state of the software and the issues associated with metadata that are holding back the development of truly user friendly networked music systems. As I see it, MinimServer and Bubble DS/UPnP, separately and in conjunction, set standards of design, reliability and user satisfaction which others need to emulate.

David

[gnomus]

(14-04-2014 23:26)DavidHB Wrote:  ... Over time, I have come to believe that [Bubble] is in fact a much better control point....

I don't want to stray even more off topic, David, but... There is one thing that irks me a little about Bubble (UPNP). As I use the interface, my Library view starts showing numbers next to Artists names. For example, "Pink Floyd (8)". This seems to be something to do with browsing the library. If I click on an Artist with no number, then go back to Library it shows a (2) as a minimum next to the name. (I never get a (1)). I'm not sure what this is telling me - something to do with how often I am browsing that particular artist, I guess. I would prefer not to have it, but it is not clear to me how I turn it off.

Finally, as you are somebody who clearly has an interest in orchestral music, can I ask you which DS you have and your views on it?

[simoncn]

(15-04-2014 07:08)gnomus Wrote:  I don't want to stray even more off topic, David, but... There is one thing that irks me a little about Bubble (UPNP). As I use the interface, my Library view starts showing numbers next to Artists names. For example, "Pink Floyd (8)". This seems to be something to do with browsing the library. If I click on an Artist with no number, then go back to Library it shows a (2) as a minimum next to the name. (I never get a (1)). I'm not sure what this is telling me - something to do with how often I am browsing that particular artist, I guess. I would prefer not to have it, but it is not clear to me how I turn it off.

This is the number of items in the container. When BubbleUPnP opens a container, it caches the contents and displays this number. The number serves as a warning that the contents are cached and will not be reloaded. The only way I have found to reload the cached contents is to exit the currently active library and reselect it.

For me, this caching is the most serious problem with BubbleUPnP. In contrast, Kinsky automatically reloads the contents of a container every time the container (not the library) is redisplayed.

In all other respects apart from this caching issue, I think BubbleUPnP/DS is an excellent control point and I fully endorse DavidHB's comments above.

[gnomus]

(15-04-2014 08:58)simoncn Wrote:  This is the number of items in the container....

I'm not sure I know what a "container" is, but if I am looking at the Artist list then the number next to "Pink Floyd" is not the number of Pink Floyd albums that I have. Plus, the number seems to change as I browse the library.

[simoncn]

(15-04-2014 09:35)gnomus Wrote:  

(15-04-2014 08:58)simoncn Wrote:  This is the number of items in the container....

I'm not sure I know what a "container" is, but if I am looking at the Artist list then the number next to "Pink Floyd" is not the number of Pink Floyd albums that I have. Plus, the number seems to change as I browse the library.

It is the number of entries that will be displayed if you click on the numbered entry.

Because of the Intelligent Browsing feature of MinimServer, you won't always see the complete list of your Pink Floyd albums when you click on Pink Floyd. Some of these albums might have been filtered out by previous browsing choices.

[DavidHB]

(15-04-2014 07:08)gnomus Wrote:  There is one thing that irks me a little about Bubble (UPNP). As I use the interface, my Library view starts showing numbers next to Artists names. For example, "Pink Floyd (8)". This seems to be something to do with browsing the library. If I click on an Artist with no number, then go back to Library it shows a (2) as a minimum next to the name. (I never get a (1)). I'm not sure what this is telling me - something to do with how often I am browsing that particular artist, I guess. I would prefer not to have it, but it is not clear to me how I turn it off.

Simon has answered the point from the technical perspective. I agree with him about the caching (in my ideal world, control points would do no caching at all, though I believe the UPnP specification does allow it), but it is not a major issue for me unless I change the contents of the MinimServer library during the current session.

The idea of the 'container' is actually quite simple. We are used to the idea of a browse 'tree', but it is also the case that each branch of the tree logically 'contains' everything at the next level down. When we select one of the contained items, we may find that it is also a container, and so on down until we get to the item we want to play.

The number indicates not the number of matching tracks or albums you have, but the number of items in the list that is contained. The list may contain entries such as 'n albums', 'n' items, Composer, Artist etc., indicating the choice of browsing containers (or, if you prefer, nodes on the browse tree) you have at that level. I find the numbers quite useful myself, as they help me to recall where I am in the browse tree and where I have been during the current session.

Quote:Finally, as you are somebody who clearly has an interest in orchestral music, can I ask you which DS you have and your views on it?

I have a Linn Akurate DSM, and am very happy with it. More detail than that would probably take us seriously off topic, but I'm happy to discuss equipment choices in a more appropriate thread.

David

[gnomus]

(15-04-2014 11:21)DavidHB Wrote:  The idea of the 'container' is actually quite simple ....

OK - I think I get it. I'll have a little play and see if it begins to make more sense to me. I note what you have to say about the equipment. I may post another thread in an appropriate place when the time comes.

Thanks again for helping my understanding.

[magister]

(14-04-2014 23:26)DavidHB Wrote:  And Bubble offers much more than Kinsky by way of display options, and so gives you better access to MinimServer's elegant and fully-featured browse tree.

I've been interested in Bubble but I don't own an Android tablet. I might invest in one, but before doing that I'd like to get a little more information. Perhaps David or someone else can help out.

The control point I use most often, PS Audio's eLyric (designed to work with my PS Audio dac), has one very useful feature not usually found elsewhere: it displays the top level of the browse tree at the left of the screen. This is helpful because when selecting music I often drill down four or five levels (e.g., composer - subgenre - composition - conductor). Some control points make me tap the 'Back' button four or five times to get back to the top, whereas with eLyric I can tap directly on a different composer, using the convenient tree at the left. Tapping that 'Back' button repeatedly gets annoying. How does this work with Bubble?

I take advantage of MinimServer's tag formatting capabilities to show the name of the conductor along with the orchestra. Some control points, such as Kinsky, display this as they should, while others just ignore it. Does Bubble implement this feature of MinimServer?

Finally, David mentions the lack of a good remote for foobar2000. I recently discovered MonkeyMote 4 foobar. I have it on my iPad and it seems quite decent, in the limited testing I've done -- I'm not sure if it's available for Android but it might be. Even though it's not my main player (that's MinimSever ), foobar is useful for various things and it's nice to have a remote.

[simoncn]

(18-04-2014 14:11)magister Wrote:  I take advantage of MinimServer's tag formatting capabilities to show the name of the conductor along with the orchestra. Some control points, such as Kinsky, display this as they should, while others just ignore it. Does Bubble implement this feature of MinimServer?

I'd be interested to know which control points don't handle this correctly. Tag formatting shouldn't require any special support from the control point.

[DavidHB]

(18-04-2014 14:11)magister Wrote:  I've been interested in Bubble but I don't own an Android tablet. I might invest in one, but before doing that I'd like to get a little more information. Perhaps David or someone else can help out.

The control point I use most often, PS Audio's eLyric (designed to work with my PS Audio dac), has one very useful feature not usually found elsewhere: it displays the top level of the browse tree at the left of the screen. This is helpful because when selecting music I often drill down four or five levels (e.g., composer - subgenre - composition - conductor). Some control points make me tap the 'Back' button four or five times to get back to the top, whereas with eLyric I can tap directly on a different composer, using the convenient tree at the left. Tapping that 'Back' button repeatedly gets annoying. How does this work with Bubble?

Firstly if you are thinking of trying out an Android tablet, you may wish to be reminded of these differences from iOS:

• Android in its native form (particularly on Google's own Nexus devices) is designed to work with Google's ecosystem, and expects you to have and use a Google account (I had one, so the transition was not an issue for me);
• Manufacturers customise Android, so one device does not necessarily look like another (try before you buy);
• 3rd party manufacturers tend to lock their devices to particular versions of Android, and I would not myself purchase a version earlier than 4.2; Google allow updates to their devices.
  

I am not familiar with the eLyric control point, but I believe that Bubble has a somewhat similar feature to the one you describe. Long-clicking on the Android back button takes you immediately to the MinimServer root display, thereby avoiding multiple tapping. What this cannot do, of course, is take you to a particular intermediate point, but (if I have understood correctly) I don't think eLyric does this, either.

Quote:I take advantage of MinimServer's tag formatting capabilities to show the name of the conductor along with the orchestra. Some control points, such as Kinsky, display this as they should, while others just ignore it. Does Bubble implement this feature of MinimServer?

Yes it does.

My current tagFormat settings are:

ComposerSort.displayFormat={$composer},Title.displayFormat={$composer$title^^^: }

Bubble fully respects both of these.

Quote:Finally, David mentions the lack of a good remote for foobar2000. I recently discovered MonkeyMote 4 foobar. I have it on my iPad and it seems quite decent, in the limited testing I've done -- I'm not sure if it's available for Android but it might be. Even though it's not my main player (that's MinimSever ), foobar is useful for various things and it's nice to have a remote.

Thank you for the information. Unfortunately, MonkeyMote does not appear on the Google Play store.

David