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Peter StreamMagic · 04-10-2015, 16:39

(04-10-2015 16:10)simoncn Wrote:
(04-10-2015 13:42)Peter StreamMagic Wrote: I have a same issue with the Cambridge audio app.
This app shows various artists, where it should show the "track artist".
Bubble UPnP does display correctly so MinimServer nor faulty tagging are to blame.
Strangely ,if an Album is "loaded" with Bubble, the CA app displays correctly but doesn't show the queue (although just showing one track, it does play the whole album)

Peter

From the fourth of these screenshots, it looks like you have tagged the AlbumArtist as Various Artists and the Artist as Paul Weller.

That is correct.
Am I supposed to do this in a different way?
"MinimServer is observing the normal industry standards (AlbumArtist for the overall album artist and Artist for each track artist)"
The goal is having the CA Connect app display the specific Artist for each track and not Various Artists for all tracks.

Peter.

simoncn · 04-10-2015, 16:57

(04-10-2015 16:39)Peter StreamMagic Wrote: That is correct.
Am I supposed to do this in a different way?
"MinimServer is observing the normal industry standards (AlbumArtist for the overall album artist and Artist for each track artist)"
The goal is having the CA Connect app display the specific Artist for each track and not Various Artists for all tracks.

Peter.

This is fine if you want Various Artists to be shown as the artist for the overall album. The OP doesn't want this to be shown but wants to show some other overall album artist name.

Peter StreamMagic · 04-10-2015, 18:10

(04-10-2015 16:57)simoncn Wrote:
(04-10-2015 16:39)Peter StreamMagic Wrote: That is correct.
Am I supposed to do this in a different way?
"MinimServer is observing the normal industry standards (AlbumArtist for the overall album artist and Artist for each track artist)"
The goal is having the CA Connect app display the specific Artist for each track and not Various Artists for all tracks.

Peter.

This is fine if you want Various Artists to be shown as the artist for the overall album. The OP doesn't want this to be shown but wants to show some other overall album artist name.

Yes it is an album with 17 different artists and I want it to be shown as an Various Artists album.
Bubble (2nd screenshot) does display this the way I want.
The CA app shows Various Artists for "overall album artist" and in each individual track

Peter.

simoncn · 04-10-2015, 19:49

(04-10-2015 18:10)Peter StreamMagic Wrote: Yes it is an album with 17 different artists and I want it to be shown as an Various Artists album.
Bubble (2nd screenshot) does display this the way I want.
The CA app shows Various Artists for "overall album artist" and in each individual track

Peter.

OK, I understand the problem you are seeing. It is the opposite to the OP's problem. When using MinimServer, he sees the correct track artists and an incorrect overall album artist. When using MinimServer, you see the correct overall album artist and incorrect track artists.

Peter StreamMagic · (This post was last modified: 04-10-2015 21:03 by Peter StreamMagic.)

(04-10-2015 19:49)simoncn Wrote: [quote='Peter StreamMagic' pid='17795' dateline='1443978657']
Yes it is an album with 17 different artists and I want it to be shown as an Various Artists album.
Bubble (2nd screenshot) does display this the way I want.
The CA app shows Various Artists for "overall album artist" and in each individual track

Peter.

OK, I understand the problem you are seeing. It is the opposite to the OP's problem. When using MinimServer, he sees the correct track artists and an incorrect overall album artist. When using MinimServer, you see the correct overall album artist and incorrect track artists.

Yes, I should have stated it was an simular problem, not the same!
Probably the only way to solve this, is to contact CA app devaloppers?

Peter

simoncn · 04-10-2015, 22:48

(04-10-2015 21:00)Peter StreamMagic Wrote: Yes, I should have stated it was an simular problem, not the same!
Probably the only way to solve this, is to contact CA app devaloppers?

Peter

Yes, I think this is the best way to get the problem fixed.

SRC · 05-10-2015, 09:52

Hello chaps...Just catching up on this...

(03-10-2015 21:51)simoncn Wrote: I have checked the XML metadata that the current version of Asset UPnP sends to the control point for each track. Asset UPnP sends AlbumArtist, Composer and Performer information but it doesn't send Artist information (this seems strange to me). I presume it is the lack of (differing) Artist information for the album tracks that is causing the Naim app not to show Various artists as the overall artist and also not to show the correct artists for the tracks of the album. I don't have any information from Naim about this, so this is just my interpretation of what I have seen.

Yes, I had read somewhere that Asset actually sends over a 'Performer' tag for Artist (I agree, weird...)...which must explain the differing display results that end up on the Naim App. This gave me an idea on how perhaps to fool the Naim App into displaying what I ideally want – I tried to add a tag alias in Minim that would send Performer based upon my embedded AlbumArtist tag, thinking the Naim App would then use this for the overall artist (a la Asset) and not resort to the Various Artists display....But no joy. Either that or I was doing it wrong...?

(03-10-2015 21:51)simoncn Wrote: It is very unfortunate that the UPnP specification doesn't specify rules for what the server should send in this case and what the control point should expect to receive. This means that each server and control point is likely to do something slightly different and many combinations don't produce correct results, as you are seeing. It is also unfortunate that the Naim app shows the overall album artist as Various artists and is ignoring the AlbumArtist value that MinimServer is sending.

You are absolutely right Simon. It's such a pain there is no set standard as such and it's no wonder why there are so many differing outcomes across servers, streamers and their control points. Logic would say that it should all be straight forward – a server should send through a tag if it's in place, in a straight forward manner, and then the control points should show that tag in the correct manner based upon what it IS....But if you've got servers sending out 'swapped' tag info (i.e Asset) or not using/sending at all (Naim US etc) and then receiving devices using and displaying that info in all different ways, then what hope is there for any kind of predictable and consistent result...!?

(03-10-2015 21:51)simoncn Wrote: MinimServer is observing the normal industry standards (AlbumArtist for the overall album artist and Artist for each track artist) and this works correctly with most control points. I don't know why the Naim app isn't using this information (presumably a bug) and I don't think it would be possible for MinimServer to do anything to improve this situation unless Naim is willing to change things at their end.

I tend to agree. From what little I know and understand, Minim is doing everything 'correct' and the fault seems to lay elsewhere, rather frustratingly...Not only is it going by the book (if only there was one!) by default, but it is also highly tuneable, unlike some servers I've had brief experience with, and yet the display results are still not always as desired due to whatever control points and the way they use the data....To me, the various control points really need to add the ability for more user customisation and options to tweak what and how the information received is displayed...

I applaud Minim for the reasons above and it's extensive abilities seem only to be limited by the implementation of the control Apps. (The only thing I would perhaps like on Minim is a slightly more user friendly UI...Oh, and a Random Playlist Wink

). Fortunately, out of the box with only minor tweaking, Minim is giving 99% the result I would like to see with the Naim App, it's only the overall Album Artist in the list view that I would love to be different....here's hoping to it changing with some further updates/tweaks of the App by Naim, though I'm more nervous of things changing from what they are now and losing what is displaying correctly..!

(04-10-2015 16:57)simoncn Wrote: This is fine if you want Various Artists to be shown as the artist for the overall album. The OP doesn't want this to be shown but wants to show some other overall album artist name.

Exactly...I want the Album Artist to be just that, the Album Artist. Otherwise, why have the tag!? And if there are individual tracks with a guest artist or whatever, and the artist/record company has chosen to highlight that, then this should be shown on the specific track and now playing screen etc. (Fortunately Minim is giving this 2nd aspect, unlike Naim's very own UPnP server)....

The way I see it, to use one of the example albums I've posted images of here, if I go into a record shop for a Daft Punk album then I look under Daft Punk, as it's their album....I don't go looking under V for Various Artists..! I would logically like my HiFi to display the same....iTunes seems to manage it easily, but UPnP and it's various implementations seems to be making a right hash out of it.....

For me 'Various Artists' is more suitable for an actual compilation album, i.e where there are actual different and individual artists from track to track.....

But then, as Peter's example and wishes show, we all want and prefer different things..! No one size fits all I guess.....If the servers, and particularly the control Apps, all did things more consistently and also allowed for a bit more user control, we just might all get what we wanted though....!

Anyway, thanks again for looking at this Simon, appreciated. I'll sort out a donation to Minim. And I will donate again if, as seems likely, I ultimately start using Minimserver as my main server in place of Naims.

Cheers, Steve

simoncn · 05-10-2015, 10:56

(05-10-2015 09:52)SRC Wrote: Yes, I had read somewhere that Asset actually sends over a 'Performer' tag for Artist (I agree, weird...)...which must explain the differing display results that end up on the Naim App. This gave me an idea on how perhaps to fool the Naim App into displaying what I ideally want – I tried to add a tag alias in Minim that would send Performer based upon my embedded AlbumArtist tag, thinking the Naim App would then use this for the overall artist (a la Asset) and not resort to the Various Artists display....But no joy. Either that or I was doing it wrong...?

You can configure MinimServer to send exactly what Asset is sending if you want to. The problem with this is that it will omit the track artists (as the Naim app does with Asset). If this is what you want, let me know and I will post instructions.

Quote:Anyway, thanks again for looking at this Simon, appreciated. I'll sort out a donation to Minim. And I will donate again if, as seems likely, I ultimately start using Minimserver as my main server in place of Naims.

Cheers, Steve

THanks very much!

SRC · 05-10-2015, 11:04

(05-10-2015 10:56)simoncn Wrote: You can configure MinimServer to send exactly what Asset is sending if you want to. The problem with this is that it will omit the track artists (as the Naim app does with Asset). If this is what you want, let me know and I will post instructions.

No, it's definitely what I don't want..! i.e. I do want to have the track artists, unlike Asset. I was just hoping – dreaming – that if Minim sent over a Performer tag like Asset does, but based on my embedded Album Artist, then I would get a desired Album Artist displayed just like Asset, but STILL have the track listings/playing showing the 'correct' embedded Artist tag as Minim is doing......But, it seems it's one or the other...!

Thanks anyway Simon.

Steve.

simoncn · 05-10-2015, 12:39

(05-10-2015 11:04)SRC Wrote: No, it's definitely what I don't want..! i.e. I do want to have the track artists, unlike Asset. I was just hoping – dreaming – that if Minim sent over a Performer tag like Asset does, but based on my embedded Album Artist, then I would get a desired Album Artist displayed just like Asset, but STILL have the track listings/playing showing the 'correct' embedded Artist tag as Minim is doing......But, it seems it's one or the other...!

Thanks anyway Simon.

Steve.

The presence or absence of Performer isn't significant. The problem is that the Naim app can't handle the combination of a specific track artist and a different specific overall album artist. Asset isn't sending specific track artists and this is why you are getting a different display. The only way to improve this situation would be for Naim customers to ask Naim to get the Naim app to recognize the combination of a specific track artist and a different specific overall album artist.