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SRC · 30-09-2015, 10:20

Firstly, Hello to the forum!

Secondly, very impressed with MinimServer – Congratulations Simon and I appreciate your work, as do many others I'm sure..! I've only had a short play/test and, although I'm still trying to get my head around some of it and the terminology for all the customisation, I'm already impressed with just how extensive the potential seems to be...

I've recently been demoing a Naim UnitiServe to front/serve the rest of my Naim kit and whilst I really 'wanted' to be all Naim through the whole streaming chain (plus having the ripper) I was really struck by just how limiting the handling of metadata seems to be via the Naim server software, not to mention the lack of even basic tagging customisation...Ironically the Naim App control point isn't so much the problem and will seemingly happily display what's sent to it, which is where the weakness of the Naim servers seems to be....(at least based on my few days experience)...A lot of my frustration centred on a lack of support for the Album Artist tag – an album and it's tracks were either all one artist name or alternatively tagged as all being Various Artist, which I could see was going to be a bit tedious with albums containing lots of 'featured artists'....iTunes seems to manage all OK!

MinimServer to the rescue it seems! I had noticed an old post on the Naim forum by the ever helpful 'Simon-in-Suffolk' suggesting the MinimServer served up featured artists etc all well and good to the Naim streamers/control App, which prompted me to give it a test...and it sure does! As I say, I've only had a short play using a small test folder of albums so far and I'm still trying to get to grips with the language of how things are customised...From the base settings and a few tweaks I'm seeing things generally displayed as I would like (for now anyway) i.e. an album with numerous or 'featured' artists being listed under the embedded general Album Artist tag and individual tracks displaying the individual artist when relevant in lists or in the now playing display etc...All good!

However, one thing I've noticed and I'm not sure if this is specific to the Naim App and the way it's displaying or if there's a setting in MinimServer that I can apply to get what I want, but I am still getting 'Various Artists' listed as the artist in a certain view on the App (please see attached grab) i.e. when I view an album from the artists album folder. – I get the album title at top and Various artist underneath as the artist...I'm not sure if this is the intentional default from MinimServer, if it can be changed and/or if the error lays somewhere else..? (I've doubled checked the tagging, Album Artist is all the same name i.e Pharrell Williams)...It seems to be the same situation for a Daft Punk album that I know also contains lots of 'featured' artists....

Appreciate any thoughts or advice on this...I'm hoping it's possible to do what I'm wanting, i.e using Album Artist tag for display 'overall' but then individual Artist Tags when viewing the separate tracks....?? Hopefully I'm making sense....!?

Thanks in advance,
Steve

simoncn · (This post was last modified: 30-09-2015 12:33 by simoncn.)

Welcome to the MinimServer forum!

MinimServer does exactly what you want but the Naim app isn't cooperating. I've tagged my albums in the same way that you have and other control points such as Linn Kinsky display the overall artist (the AlbumArtist tag value) in the list of albums and also on the album contents page. The Naim app shows the the overall artist (the AlbumArtist tag value) in the list of albums but for some strange reason insists on showing "Various artists" on the album contents page.

I have verified that MinimServer is sending the correct values to the Naim app and the string "Various artists" is being inserted on the Naim app side of things.

Perhaps you could report this to the Naim helpline and see what they say. I would be interest to know whether they consider this to be a bug or a "feature".

SRC · (This post was last modified: 30-09-2015 14:30 by SRC.)

Many thanks Simon..! Much appreciated.

Well, I can't say I'm surprised that the 'issue' seems to be at the Naim end of things..! Yeah, 'feature' or 'bug'...Hmmm!

At the least I'm a bit relieved that it's nothing I can do anything about myself via MinimServer (or otherwise), so if that's the way it is for the time being then so be it – least I have my tagging correct and in place....Here's hoping for a future change in the Naim App then..! Little things like this are so frustrating...!

Whilst I have you, as an aside, are there any plans to have a version of MinimServer for the latest Netgear ReadyNAS models..? My first plan is to go with OS X and a dedicated MacMini (though I'm wary of SMB issues and Naim shares) so plan B would be a NAS, of which I'd prefer Netgear ideally....

Many thanks again – great work!

simoncn · 30-09-2015, 15:29

(30-09-2015 14:18)SRC Wrote: Many thanks Simon..! Much appreciated.

Well, I can't say I'm surprised that the 'issue' seems to be at the Naim end of things..! Yeah, 'feature' or 'bug'...Hmmm!

At the least I'm a bit relieved that it's nothing I can do anything about myself via MinimServer (or otherwise), so if that's the way it is for the time being then so be it – least I have my tagging correct and in place....Here's hoping for a future change in the Naim App then..! Little things like this are so frustrating...!

I doubt very much that this will change unless Naim customers such as yourself contact the Naim helpline to raise this as an issue.

Quote:Whilst I have you, as an aside, are there any plans to have a version of MinimServer for the latest Netgear ReadyNAS models..? My first plan is to go with OS X and a dedicated MacMini (though I'm wary of SMB issues and Naim shares) so plan B would be a NAS, of which I'd prefer Netgear ideally....

Many thanks again – great work!

Thre is some unfortunate history regarding NETGEAR support for third-party application developers (see this thread). There is also no Java package available for the current ReadyNAS models (unlike Synology, QNAP and ASUSTOR). For these reasons, it is unlikely that I will do any more work on providing additional ReadyNAS support.

SRC · 01-10-2015, 05:38

Thank you Simon.

I certainly will contact Naim support on the issue, and perhaps also raise it on their forum....though I suspect I may be in the minority with a) noticing the display issue and/or b) being particularly bothered about it....! I believe a new Naim App update is due very soon, so with any luck there may have been some background tinkering that might rectify the tagging display....but we'll see!

Thanks for the link re ReadyNAS – interesting and useful to be aware of. Bit of a shame, as otherwise I've always got on well with Netgear kit generally....

So, QNAP or Synology it is then....Hmmm, which way to go..!?

Cheers.

SRC · (This post was last modified: 02-10-2015 06:32 by SRC.)

(30-09-2015 12:33)simoncn Wrote: MinimServer does exactly what you want but the Naim app isn't cooperating. I've tagged my albums in the same way that you have and other control points such as Linn Kinsky display the overall artist (the AlbumArtist tag value) in the list of albums and also on the album contents page. The Naim app shows the the overall artist (the AlbumArtist tag value) in the list of albums but for some strange reason insists on showing "Various artists" on the album contents page.

I have verified that MinimServer is sending the correct values to the Naim app and the string "Various artists" is being inserted on the Naim app side of things.

OK, things seem to get yet more curious with this...

As an experiment, I downloaded Asset UPnP for OS X just to have a short play and see what I generally thought of it, due to it being equally recommended on the Naim forum....I pointed it to the same set of files/albums in a small test folder that I used for Minim the other day, everything else the same too in terms of renderer, Naim App etc....

And, strangely, Asset IS showing the Album Artist tag in the overall title, unlike Minim as I initially posted...However, and weirdly in my view, it is NOT displaying Artist tags in the track listings...!! I tried toggling various configuration options but to no avail...and actually soon got bored with it!

I've tripple-tripple checked the tags using dbPoweramp – deliberately there's only a few main fields populated for the sake of testing, i.e Album, Artist, Album Artist, Title, Year....All are correct and consistent.

Screen grab attached here is when using Asset to the Naim App, of the exact same album/files as per the Minim image I attached in my first post. As you can see, I get the Album Artist listed at the top, as I would like and consider to be 'correct', but the individual tracks are now all collectively displaying NO Artist tag at all, whereas Minim correctly shows the Artist tags in the list but the Naim App displays Various Artist in the top title (assuming Simon is correct in that the string is being applied by the Naim app).....???

Incidentally, except somehow correctly displaying the title album artist correctly in the Naim App, I wasn't hugely impressed with Asset from the quick look I had...Perhaps slightly easier to use/set-up yes and I certainly like the fact it offers dynamic playlists and especially a Random Jukebox feature, but otherwise I found it a little more 'rigid' for some reason...Perhaps there's more there, but that was just my first impression....Far prefer the feel and results of Minim – apart from this particular display issue!

SRC · (This post was last modified: 02-10-2015 06:34 by SRC.)

Just another example showing the differences in display results. Same files used by both UPnP servers.

First attachment shows the Naim App display using Asset – Correct Album Artist tag used at top...But no Artist tags used in tracks list.

Second attachment is the same album served up from Minim – 'Various Artists' inserted into top title (is not present in embedded tags)...but correct Artist tags are used in the track list.

Incidentally, when using the built-in server from Naim's UnitiServe the other day, the display results on the App was somewhere between these two..! Instead of 'Various Artists' or individual Artist tags being used, it would all be one consistent singular Artist tag used everywhere..! (I presuming this is due to the fact the Naim servers don't seem to make use of Album Artist tagging...a bloody great shame)

UPnP....Arrrhhhh!!!! If it wasn't for wanting to play to the Naim streamers, increasing Hi-Def downloads and lack of decent support for WAV files, I'd stick to iTunes – least it's consistent, looks good and can play shuffle for days on end...!!

Steve

simoncn · 03-10-2015, 21:51

I have checked the XML metadata that the current version of Asset UPnP sends to the control point for each track. Asset UPnP sends AlbumArtist, Composer and Performer information but it doesn't send Artist information (this seems strange to me). I presume it is the lack of (differing) Artist information for the album tracks that is causing the Naim app not to show Various artists as the overall artist and also not to show the correct artists for the tracks of the album. I don't have any information from Naim about this, so this is just my interpretation of what I have seen.

It is very unfortunate that the UPnP specification doesn't specify rules for what the server should send in this case and what the control point should expect to receive. This means that each server and control point is likely to do something slightly different and many combinations don't produce correct results, as you are seeing. It is also unfortunate that the Naim app shows the overall album artist as Various artists and is ignoring the AlbumArtist value that MinimServer is sending.

MinimServer is observing the normal industry standards (AlbumArtist for the overall album artist and Artist for each track artist) and this works correctly with most control points. I don't know why the Naim app isn't using this information (presumably a bug) and I don't think it would be possible for MinimServer to do anything to improve this situation unless Naim is willing to change things at their end.

Peter StreamMagic · 04-10-2015, 13:42

[attachment=935][attachment=936]

(03-10-2015 21:51)simoncn Wrote: I have checked the XML metadata that the current version of Asset UPnP sends to the control point for each track. Asset UPnP sends AlbumArtist, Composer and Performer information but it doesn't send Artist information (this seems strange to me). I presume it is the lack of (differing) Artist information for the album tracks that is causing the Naim app not to show Various artists as the overall artist and also not to show the correct artists for the tracks of the album. I don't have any information from Naim about this, so this is just my interpretation of what I have seen.

It is very unfortunate that the UPnP specification doesn't specify rules for what the server should send in this case and what the control point should expect to receive. This means that each server and control point is likely to do something slightly different and many combinations don't produce correct results, as you are seeing. It is also unfortunate that the Naim app shows the overall album artist as Various artists and is ignoring the AlbumArtist value that MinimServer is sending.

MinimServer is observing the normal industry standards (AlbumArtist for the overall album artist and Artist for each track artist) and this works correctly with most control points. I don't know why the Naim app isn't using this information (presumably a bug) and I don't think it would be possible for MinimServer to do anything to improve this situation unless Naim is willing to change things at their end.

I have a same issue with the Cambridge audio app.
This app shows various artists, where it should show the "track artist".
Bubble UPnP does display correctly so MinimServer nor faulty tagging are to blame.
Strangely ,if an Album is "loaded" with Bubble, the CA app displays correctly but doesn't show the queue (although just showing one track, it does play the whole album)

Peter

simoncn · (This post was last modified: 04-10-2015 16:11 by simoncn.)

(04-10-2015 13:42)Peter StreamMagic Wrote: I have a same issue with the Cambridge audio app.
This app shows various artists, where it should show the "track artist".
Bubble UPnP does display correctly so MinimServer nor faulty tagging are to blame.
Strangely ,if an Album is "loaded" with Bubble, the CA app displays correctly but doesn't show the queue (although just showing one track, it does play the whole album)

Peter

From the fourth of these screenshots, it looks like you have tagged the AlbumArtist as Various Artists and the Artist as Paul Weller.