MinimServer complexity (was Configuration Backup)

[simoncn]

(27-09-2014 19:37)Dieter Stockert Wrote:  Thank you, Simon. I have seen that before. But as I tried to explain in the "Support for Simon" thread, this is miles away from what I would expect as a non technical user. swansatspree said he could "set this thing up in less than 10 minutes", but since that I have never heard of him. I think we were just not on the same page and I could (and can) not really explain what my points are. That's on one part because english is not my native language, but there are other reasons too (my limited understanding of that stuff, and I think we would need a combination of music server software and control app, and it's easier to say what I don't like than to say in detail how something should work ...).

I think I understand what you would like to see. There are many aspects of the current approaches to ripping, tagging, browsing, playing and configuring that fall far short of what a non-technical user would expect. The solutions might be simple to describe but they aren't simple to implement. I'm doing my best to make a small contribution to moving things in the right direction.

[Dieter Stockert]

And after switching from Twonky to MinimServer I appreciate that very much.

[DavidHB]

(27-09-2014 20:14)simoncn Wrote:  There are many aspects of the current approaches to ripping, tagging, browsing, playing and configuring that fall far short of what a non-technical user would expect. The solutions might be simple to describe but they aren't simple to implement. I'm doing my best to make a small contribution to moving things in the right direction.

Thank you from me too, Simon. I'm glad you used the word 'small' in your last sentence, because I think we users need to be realistic in our expectations.

If I look at, for example, the dbPoweramp options dialog, I see something that other participants in this discussion might regard a more of a 'true' GUI than the MinimServer Properties window, but which is at least as difficult for non-technical people to use (not least because it is not nearly as well-documented; Spoon seems to have a rooted aversion to the written word).

I believe that, for the foreseeable future, we users will have to accept that we either put up with the limitations of DLNA and the like or we we get our hands dirty and take control of our systems ourselves. There are companies (such as Linn with its Kazoo control point and server combination) which appear to be trying to find a middle way, but there is plenty of evidence on this forum and elsewhere that, so far at least, their success in this endeavour has been somewhat limited. In my book, MinimServer's well-documented and consistent 'penny plain' interface does what it sets out to do pretty well, and is therefore relatively easy to learn.

David

[simoncn]

(28-09-2014 13:04)DavidHB Wrote:  I believe that, for the foreseeable future, we users will have to accept that we either put up with the limitations of DLNA and the like or we we get our hands dirty and take control of our systems ourselves.

Can you expand on what you mean by the latter part of this sentence?

[DavidHB]

(28-09-2014 14:58)simoncn Wrote:  

(28-09-2014 13:04)DavidHB Wrote:  I believe that, for the foreseeable future, we users will have to accept that we either put up with the limitations of DLNA and the like or we we get our hands dirty and take control of our systems ourselves.

Can you expand on what you mean by the latter part of this sentence?

Briefly, it's about the implied relationship between the provider of the system resources (you in this case) and the users (us), and the expectations we have of each other. Assumptions have to be made on both sides as to how much skill/knowledge users will need to operate their systems effectively, and how much effort they will need to devote to this task.

As an obvious example, if the working of an application needs to be explained in a user manual, the expectation is that users will read and try to understand the manual before they start asking questions or complaining that the application 'doesn't work'. You know better than I that users do not always share this expectation.

The technology (including the technical protocols) associated with music streaming systems is, I believe, currently at a stage of development where significant user intervention is required to meet a wide range of specific user needs. Where user intervention is not allowed, as for example in DLNA-based systems, the product may, at a superficial level, be more user friendly (no pesky choices to make or settings to be confused by), but the user experience is correspondingly impoverished. For example, using a DLNA system out of the box to stream classical music is an exercise in frustration.

You have developed MinimServer in such a way that it offers greater scope for user intervention, and greater real-time responsiveness to users, than other servers. The price users pay for these benefits is that the MinimServer UI requires them to learn and involve themselves with more of the technical detail than if they were using a standard media server. In the sentence you asked me to explain, I was suggesting that this is a price worth paying.

Does that explain things? I could go on and on ...

David

[simoncn]

(28-09-2014 22:58)DavidHB Wrote:  Briefly, it's about the implied relationship between the provider of the system resources (you in this case) and the users (us), and the expectations we have of each other. Assumptions have to be made on both sides as to how much skill/knowledge users will need to operate their systems effectively, and how much effort they will need to devote to this task.

As an obvious example, if the working of an application needs to be explained in a user manual, the expectation is that users will read and try to understand the manual before they start asking questions or complaining that the application 'doesn't work'. You know better than I that users do not always share this expectation.

The technology (including the technical protocols) associated with music streaming systems is, I believe, currently at a stage of development where significant user intervention is required to meet a wide range of specific user needs. Where user intervention is not allowed, as for example in DLNA-based systems, the product may, at a superficial level, be more user friendly (no pesky choices to make or settings to be confused by), but the user experience is correspondingly impoverished. For example, using a DLNA system out of the box to stream classical music is an exercise in frustration.

You have developed MinimServer in such a way that it offers greater scope for user intervention, and greater real-time responsiveness to users, than other servers. The price users pay for these benefits is that the MinimServer UI requires them to learn and involve themselves with more of the technical detail than if they were using a standard media server. In the sentence you asked me to explain, I was suggesting that this is a price worth paying.

Does that explain things? I could go on and on ...

David

Thanks for the explanation. I agree with most of what you say with one reservation: I would like the out-of-the-box user experience with the default MinimServer settings to be comparable to that of the more limited DLNA systems that you have described. I'm aware of a few aspects where this isn't yet the case and I'm working to address these. Any suggestions for things to add to this list would be welcome.

[DavidHB]

(29-09-2014 08:29)simoncn Wrote:  I agree with most of what you say with one reservation: I would like the out-of-the-box user experience with the default MinimServer settings to be comparable to that of the more limited DLNA systems that you have described. I'm aware of a few aspects where this isn't yet the case and I'm working to address these. Any suggestions for things to add to this list would be welcome.

As I look back, I don't recall that getting MinimServer working with the defaults was any more difficult than working through the ReadyNAS settings to activate ReadyDNLA. Of course I needed to install both Java and MinimServer itself, but these installations were entirely straightforward. More recently, when I set up the Kazoo server, it did not seem to be noticeably easier than getting MinimServer going. In the case of both of these servers, however, it quickly became apparent that they were less configurable and lacking in features compared to MinimServer. I have never been tempted to use them other than experimentally. So whatever deficiencies in MinimServer you are referring to have not been a concern to me.

I did wonder whether, if a 'backup and restore settings' feature were implemented, this could be used to give MinimServer pre-built standard sets of settings (I am assuming that the settings would be saved as a simple text file). Alternatively, users could share settings files on the Forum. That way, a new user who wanted to support, say, a library of classical music, could have default settings which were more directly linked to his or her needs. This approach would also be useful for the terminally non-technical user who gets a friend (or a dealer) to set up their system. What I don't know is whether this idea could work without creating further problems downstream.

David

[simoncn]

(29-09-2014 12:10)DavidHB Wrote:  As I look back, I don't recall that getting MinimServer working with the defaults was any more difficult than working through the ReadyNAS settings to activate ReadyDNLA. Of course I needed to install both Java and MinimServer itself, but these installations were entirely straightforward. More recently, when I set up the Kazoo server, it did not seem to be noticeably easier than getting MinimServer going. In the case of both of these servers, however, it quickly became apparent that they were less configurable and lacking in features compared to MinimServer. I have never been tempted to use them other than experimentally. So whatever deficiencies in MinimServer you are referring to have not been a concern to me.

I'm pleased to hear this, as it would suggest I have largely achieved my goal of providing an acceptable out-of-box experience when using the default settings.

Quote:I did wonder whether, if a 'backup and restore settings' feature were implemented, this could be used to give MinimServer pre-built standard sets of settings (I am assuming that the settings would be saved as a simple text file). Alternatively, users could share settings files on the Forum. That way, a new user who wanted to support, say, a library of classical music, could have default settings which were more directly linked to his or her needs. This approach would also be useful for the terminally non-technical user who gets a friend (or a dealer) to set up their system. What I don't know is whether this idea could work without creating further problems downstream.

David

To clarify, I haven't proposed providing any automated way to restore settings. If I can implement an automated way to produce a text file that is effectively a more convenient equivalent of making screenshots of the tabs in the Properties dialog, this would still require the user to enter these settings manually in the event of needing to restore.

Your suggestion of users sharing their settings is interesting but I think it would create major problems with users attempting to use someone else's settings without understanding what the settings mean. This would lead to frustration and confusion when things didn't work as expected (or just didn't work).

[DavidHB]

(29-09-2014 13:42)simoncn Wrote:  To clarify, I haven't proposed providing any automated way to restore settings. If I can implement an automated way to produce a text file that is effectively a more convenient equivalent of making screenshots of the tabs in the Properties dialog, this would still require the user to enter these settings manually in the event of needing to restore.

Point noted. When the restore file is plain text, copying and pasting (which I use now) ought not to be beyond the capabilities of most users, so, in relation to the original requirement, this seems to be a viable solution.

(29-09-2014 13:42)simoncn Wrote:  Your suggestion of users sharing their settings is interesting but I think it would create major problems with users attempting to use someone else's settings without understanding what the settings mean. This would lead to frustration and confusion when things didn't work as expected (or just didn't work)

I am sure that your concern is valid (though I am less sure how 'major' the problems would be in practice). The issue is then: how to tempt the 'non-technical' new user into adopting MinimServer and learning its capabilities for themselves.

In my experience, 'non-technical' is more often an issue of attitude or confidence than of actual capability. By definition, 'out-of-box' will incorporate settings that new users will not understand unless and until they read the manual, which they may or may not be interested and confident enough to do. So the risk you describe is present to some degree in any case.

If the installation were to offer alternative out-of-box settings, the benefit of giving the new user tested options that are easy to adopt would arguably outweigh the slightly increased risk. Perhaps if the settings file worked like many Linux configuration files and, next to each setting, had comments that described its usage, this would allow the user to do 'intelligent' copying and pasting, and would provide some training as a useful by-product. I grant you that this is hardly 'fire and forget' or even menu-based configuration, but it would make the learning curve a good deal less steep for many new users.

I hope that these ideas are useful, if only as a stimulus to further thought.

David

[simoncn]

(29-09-2014 15:00)DavidHB Wrote:  I am sure that your concern is valid (though I am less sure how 'major' the problems would be in practice). The issue is then: how to tempt the 'non-technical' new user into adopting MinimServer and learning its capabilities for themselves.

In my experience, 'non-technical' is more often an issue of attitude or confidence than of actual capability. By definition, 'out-of-box' will incorporate settings that new users will not understand unless and until they read the manual, which they may or may not be interested and confident enough to do. So the risk you describe is present to some degree in any case.

If the installation were to offer alternative out-of-box settings, the benefit of giving the new user tested options that are easy to adopt would arguably outweigh the slightly increased risk. Perhaps if the settings file worked like many Linux configuration files and, next to each setting, had comments that described its usage, this would allow the user to do 'intelligent' copying and pasting, and would provide some training as a useful by-product. I grant you that this is hardly 'fire and forget' or even menu-based configuration, but it would make the learning curve a good deal less steep for many new users.

I hope that these ideas are useful, if only as a stimulus to further thought.

David

Thanks for these comments. I understand what you are saying, but I think your suggestion won't work in practice because of the complex relationship between

• the way the user's library is tagged
• the way the user's control point presents information sent by MinimServer
• the way the user likes to browse and search their library
  

I could make up a few alternative configurations and test them with my library and my control point, but the chances of these working with the user's library and control point and doing what the user wants seems very small. Other users could join the party and contribute their preferred settings, which would have the same problem. The result (in my opinion) would be a number of confused and frustrated users.

The MinimServer User guide has a Properties page with a list of all properties, a short description of each property, and a link to a section that describes the usage of the property in more detail. This is far superior to adding short text comments to a sample configuration file.

These descriptive sections usually contain one or more examples that illustrate the usage of the property. These examples can't be fully comprehensive (or the User guide would be many times its current size), so the forum is available as a source of additional information and answers to specific questions when required.