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Indexes and Groups query - [Solved] - Printable Version

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Indexes and Groups query - [Solved] - Pastim - 28-11-2015 00:33

I have a mainly Classical collection, with Works (or parts of large Works) identified with Groups.

I have set a Rating tag on many Movements (tracks) and this is also an Index tag (as are Works and Groups).

If I select Rating 90, I see xyz items (and other indices) that include Movements rated at 90, but also all the other Movements in the Works (Groups) to which those highly rated Movements belong.

Now one might think this is not an issue until one wants to play random Movements rated at 90. One CP (and maybe others) returns Movements from all the Groups listed under Rating 90, even though many of those Movements aren't rated at 90.

So, my question is why do the Groups listed at item level include tracks that don't match the current criteria? Shouldn't they just include those tracks matching the indices used to find them?

Or is there already an option available to do this?


RE: Indexes and Groups query - simoncn - 28-11-2015 07:42

(28-11-2015 00:33)Pastim Wrote:  I have a mainly Classical collection, with Works (or parts of large Works) identified with Groups.

I have set a Rating tag on many Movements (tracks) and this is also an Index tag (as are Works and Groups).

If I select Rating 90, I see xyz items (and other indices) that include Movements rated at 90, but also all the other Movements in the Works (Groups) to which those highly rated Movements belong.

Now one might think this is not an issue until one wants to play random Movements rated at 90. One CP (and maybe others) returns Movements from all the Groups listed under Rating 90, even though many of those Movements aren't rated at 90.

So, my question is why do the Groups listed at item level include tracks that don't match the current criteria? Shouldn't they just include those tracks matching the indices used to find them?

Or is there already an option available to do this?

The Group tag is treated differently from other tags. The complete group is treated as an "item" for browsing purposes, whch means you always see the complete contents of the group when browsing. The only way to browse to a track within a group is to browse to the complete group, open the group and then select an individual track.


RE: Indexes and Groups query - Pastim - 28-11-2015 13:18

(28-11-2015 07:42)simoncn Wrote:  
(28-11-2015 00:33)Pastim Wrote:  I have a mainly Classical collection, with Works (or parts of large Works) identified with Groups.

I have set a Rating tag on many Movements (tracks) and this is also an Index tag (as are Works and Groups).

If I select Rating 90, I see xyz items (and other indices) that include Movements rated at 90, but also all the other Movements in the Works (Groups) to which those highly rated Movements belong.

Now one might think this is not an issue until one wants to play random Movements rated at 90. One CP (and maybe others) returns Movements from all the Groups listed under Rating 90, even though many of those Movements aren't rated at 90.

So, my question is why do the Groups listed at item level include tracks that don't match the current criteria? Shouldn't they just include those tracks matching the indices used to find them?

Or is there already an option available to do this?

The Group tag is treated differently from other tags. The complete group is treated as an "item" for browsing purposes, whch means you always see the complete contents of the group when browsing. The only way to browse to a track within a group is to browse to the complete group, open the group and then select an individual track.
Bother.

That means I can play 'Random Groups' but have no way to play 'Random Tracks' in a subset such as Rating (or Artist or whatever), since the Control Point can only randomise what it is served up.

I guess I'll have to investigate whether I can have 2 minimservers configured, one with the Group tag aliased to something else so as to avoid Groups completely. Or is there any other solution?


RE: Indexes and Groups query - Pastim - 28-11-2015 14:30

(28-11-2015 13:18)Pastim Wrote:  
(28-11-2015 07:42)simoncn Wrote:  
(28-11-2015 00:33)Pastim Wrote:  I have a mainly Classical collection, with Works (or parts of large Works) identified with Groups.

I have set a Rating tag on many Movements (tracks) and this is also an Index tag (as are Works and Groups).

If I select Rating 90, I see xyz items (and other indices) that include Movements rated at 90, but also all the other Movements in the Works (Groups) to which those highly rated Movements belong.

Now one might think this is not an issue until one wants to play random Movements rated at 90. One CP (and maybe others) returns Movements from all the Groups listed under Rating 90, even though many of those Movements aren't rated at 90.

So, my question is why do the Groups listed at item level include tracks that don't match the current criteria? Shouldn't they just include those tracks matching the indices used to find them?

Or is there already an option available to do this?

The Group tag is treated differently from other tags. The complete group is treated as an "item" for browsing purposes, whch means you always see the complete contents of the group when browsing. The only way to browse to a track within a group is to browse to the complete group, open the group and then select an individual track.
Bother.

That means I can play 'Random Groups' but have no way to play 'Random Tracks' in a subset such as Rating (or Artist or whatever), since the Control Point can only randomise what it is served up.

I guess I'll have to investigate whether I can have 2 minimservers configured, one with the Group tag aliased to something else so as to avoid Groups completely. Or is there any other solution?
I have now found, both by trial (and lots of error) and by reading more on the forum that multiple copies of the server can't be run on one linux system. Is that really true?

I did test that I can re-configure minimserver to avoid using Groups without having to re-tag, and that works, so that part of my solution is OK.

minimserver is running on a (normally) headless system, and is started at boot time. I don't really need to run one with groups and one without groups at the same time. Is there some way I could decide which I wanted to switch to dynamically and remotely, having started one at boot time?

I get so close to my ideal solution, but somehow there's always a wrinkle Smile


RE: Indexes and Groups query - simoncn - 28-11-2015 19:05

(28-11-2015 14:30)Pastim Wrote:  I have now found, both by trial (and lots of error) and by reading more on the forum that multiple copies of the server can't be run on one linux system. Is that really true?

No, this isn't true. I don't think the Linux installation page says or implies this. Were you looking at a very old forum post?

You can run multiple instances on Linux by installing them in different directories and setting different values for http.port, ohnet.port and displayName. If you enable both instances for autostart using minimserver/bin/setup, they will both be started when you boot the system. I will update the Linux install page to clarify this.

Quote:I did test that I can re-configure minimserver to avoid using Groups without having to re-tag, and that works, so that part of my solution is OK.

minimserver is running on a (normally) headless system, and is started at boot time. I don't really need to run one with groups and one without groups at the same time. Is there some way I could decide which I wanted to switch to dynamically and remotely, having started one at boot time?

I get so close to my ideal solution, but somehow there's always a wrinkle Smile

You will need to run both instances all the time and use your UPnP control point to switch between them. Unless your Linux machine is very short of RAM, this shouldn't cause any problems.


RE: Indexes and Groups query - Pastim - 28-11-2015 21:22

(28-11-2015 19:05)simoncn Wrote:  
(28-11-2015 14:30)Pastim Wrote:  I have now found, both by trial (and lots of error) and by reading more on the forum that multiple copies of the server can't be run on one linux system. Is that really true?

No, this isn't true. I don't think the Linux installation page says or implies this. Were you looking at a very old forum post?

You can run multiple instances on Linux by installing them in different directories and setting different values for http.port, ohnet.port and displayName. If you enable both instances for autostart using minimserver/bin/setup, they will both be started when you boot the system. I will update the Linux install page to clarify this.

Quote:I did test that I can re-configure minimserver to avoid using Groups without having to re-tag, and that works, so that part of my solution is OK.

minimserver is running on a (normally) headless system, and is started at boot time. I don't really need to run one with groups and one without groups at the same time. Is there some way I could decide which I wanted to switch to dynamically and remotely, having started one at boot time?

I get so close to my ideal solution, but somehow there's always a wrinkle Smile

You will need to run both instances all the time and use your UPnP control point to switch between them. Unless your Linux machine is very short of RAM, this shouldn't cause any problems.
I saw the recent stuff on QNAP and assumed it was similar, plus this thread - http://forum1613.minimserver.com/showthread.php?tid=502&pid=18147#pid18147. Maybe that was just for windows.

Anyhow, I installed a second copy in another directory. It was a bit of a challenge to get the ports adjusted without using minimwatch (since the 2nd minimserver wouldn't start). Is there a proper way to do set this up? I could find one.

However, using minimwatch (on ubuntu 14.04) I still see one or other of the minimservers but not both. I've 2 sets of ports, the firewall allows them all, and the names are different. I'm sure I've done something stupid but I've so far failed to get to see both. It may be something I did when trying to get both to run - I copied the old config one to the new one, with minimserver stopped, edited in the ports and name change.

The two jars are running on the server. I'll keep trying...

Edit: OK - got it working now. I shouldn't have tried to copy the configuration.


RE: Indexes and Groups query - simoncn - 28-11-2015 22:19

(28-11-2015 21:22)Pastim Wrote:  Edit: OK - got it working now. I shouldn't have tried to copy the configuration.

As you have discovered, copying the configuration isn't a good idea. Each instance needs to have a unique UDN value.

The simplest way to set this up is to change the ports and displayName on the first instance before you install the second instance.

The only platform with official support for multiple MinimServer instances is Linux. There is an usupported hack to do this on Windows.


RE: Indexes and Groups query - Pastim - 29-11-2015 10:18

(28-11-2015 22:19)simoncn Wrote:  
(28-11-2015 21:22)Pastim Wrote:  Edit: OK - got it working now. I shouldn't have tried to copy the configuration.
....The simplest way to set this up is to change the ports and displayName on the first instance before you install the second instance.

The only platform with official support for multiple MinimServer instances is Linux. There is an usupported hack to do this on Windows.
Thanks. Might be good to say all this in the installation guide.


RE: Indexes and Groups query - simoncn - 29-11-2015 10:28

(29-11-2015 10:18)Pastim Wrote:  Thanks. Might be good to say all this in the installation guide.

I will, except for the unsupported Windows hack.


RE: Indexes and Groups query - Pastim - 29-11-2015 10:56

(29-11-2015 10:28)simoncn Wrote:  
(29-11-2015 10:18)Pastim Wrote:  Thanks. Might be good to say all this in the installation guide.

I will, except for the unsupported Windows hack.
Good, and thanks for the help. I now have a solution for playing random tracks and random Works (ie Groups) - not ideal but very usable. I named the two instances in a way to remind me what they are for in a few years/months/weeks/hours time when I've forgotten Smile

I've assumed there's no way to share configuration or database data between instances, so brought up the 2 minimwatch properties and copied and pasted across (except for the name and 2 ports), and then set an Alias for Group. All seems fine. Problem solved.