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+--- Thread: Gaps Between Tracks (/showthread.php?tid=2127)
Pages: 1 2
Gaps Between Tracks - krutsch - 20-01-2015 06:58
Hello MiniServer fans.
My MinimServer stopped updating on it's own, and I didn't realize there are much newer versions available; when I looked, I went ahead and just downloaded the latest, manually (0.8.3 update 57) - I think I was previously on 0.8.1? I also use MinimStreamer (0.5.1) and ffmpeg (2.4.3).
I don't have a client that is gapless (Denon DNP-720AE), but in the past the gaps were pretty small for wav/24 transcoded audio (like a second). Now, gaps w/ 44.1/16 content is at least five seconds between tracks.
The connection to the streamer is wired ethernet.
I've tried disabling transcoding (i.e. feeding FLAC directly), not running BubbleUPnP Server (OpenHome), et al., but nothing affects the delay.
I am puzzled and not sure what else to try. I am wondering if anyone else has seen this... or do I need to bite the bullet and purchase a real streamer?
Thanks, in advance...
EDIT: for updating, I really mean being notified that updates are available.
RE: Gaps Between Tracks - simoncn - 20-01-2015 10:11
(20-01-2015 06:58)krutsch Wrote: Hello MiniServer fans.
My MinimServer stopped updating on it's own, and I didn't realize there are much newer versions available; when I looked, I went ahead and just downloaded the latest, manually (0.8.3 update 57) - I think I was previously on 0.8.1? I also use MinimStreamer (0.5.1) and ffmpeg (2.4.3).
I don't have a client that is gapless (Denon DNP-720AE), but in the past the gaps were pretty small for wav/24 transcoded audio (like a second). Now, gaps w/ 44.1/16 content is at least five seconds between tracks.
The connection to the streamer is wired ethernet.
I've tried disabling transcoding (i.e. feeding FLAC directly), not running BubbleUPnP Server (OpenHome), et al., but nothing affects the delay.
I am puzzled and not sure what else to try. I am wondering if anyone else has seen this... or do I need to bite the bullet and purchase a real streamer?
Thanks, in advance...
To investigate this, I would need to see a debug log. Please do the following:
1) From the minim icon. select 'Show log'
2) In the log window, set the logging level to Debug
3) In the log window, click 'Clear'
4) Leave the log window open
5) Play two consecutive tracks
6) While the music for the second track is playing, click 'Save as' to save the log data to a file. (Don't stop the second track playing before you do this.)
7) In the log window, set the logging level back to Info
8) Zip the log file that you saved in step 6 and attach it to a post here
Quote:EDIT: for updating, I really mean being notified that updates are available.
I understand and I am thinking about how to provide these notifications when the current release version changes.
RE: Gaps Between Tracks - krutsch - 20-01-2015 21:01
(20-01-2015 10:11)simoncn Wrote:(20-01-2015 06:58)krutsch Wrote: Hello MiniServer fans.
My MinimServer stopped updating on it's own, and I didn't realize there are much newer versions available; when I looked, I went ahead and just downloaded the latest, manually (0.8.3 update 57) - I think I was previously on 0.8.1? I also use MinimStreamer (0.5.1) and ffmpeg (2.4.3).
I don't have a client that is gapless (Denon DNP-720AE), but in the past the gaps were pretty small for wav/24 transcoded audio (like a second). Now, gaps w/ 44.1/16 content is at least five seconds between tracks.
The connection to the streamer is wired ethernet.
I've tried disabling transcoding (i.e. feeding FLAC directly), not running BubbleUPnP Server (OpenHome), et al., but nothing affects the delay.
I am puzzled and not sure what else to try. I am wondering if anyone else has seen this... or do I need to bite the bullet and purchase a real streamer?
Thanks, in advance...
To investigate this, I would need to see a debug log. Please do the following:
1) From the minim icon. select 'Show log'
2) In the log window, set the logging level to Debug
3) In the log window, click 'Clear'
4) Leave the log window open
5) Play two consecutive tracks
6) While the music for the second track is playing, click 'Save as' to save the log data to a file. (Don't stop the second track playing before you do this.)
7) In the log window, set the logging level back to Info
8) Zip the log file that you saved in step 6 and attach it to a post here
Quote:EDIT: for updating, I really mean being notified that updates are available.
I understand and I am thinking about how to provide these notifications when the current release version changes.
Well, as I was expecting, when I sat down to do the above steps, I can no longer reproduce the delays. Argh...
I *did* reboot everything, before starting: streamer, network router, MinimServer and BubbleUPnP Server. So, maybe this was all a network issue somewhere in the chain.
I will attach my logs, anyway, in case they are useful:
1: Denon Control Point.txt - "pull mode" from the streamer's built-in control point using the handheld remote; no gap whatsoever between tracks (last night, even this method was causing an audible stutter between tracks);
2: Bubble Control Point.txt - "push mode" from BubbleUPnP control point on an Android phone, without running BubbleUPnPServer; slight gap, maybe a second in length (last night, this same sequence was delaying by more than five seconds between tracks);
3: Bubble with OpenHome Control Point - as above, but with the BubbleUPnPServer running (OpenHome); slight gap, maybe twice as long as case #2, but tolerable.
In general, is shortening the gap simply a function of a faster computer hosting MiniServer/Streamer and BubbleUPnPServer?
Thanks, Ken
EDIT: forgot to attached the logs.
RE: Gaps Between Tracks - simoncn - 20-01-2015 21:38
In all these logs I see a long delay (5 to 8 seconds) between MinimServer finishing sending the first track and starting to send the second track. As you are not hearing long gaps, this suggests the streamer (or perhaps BubbleUPnP Server) is doing a lot of buffering.
For "reliable" gapless streaming, the renderer would normally start to stream the second track shortly before the first track has finished streaming.
I don't think you said what device(s) you are using to run MinimServer and BubbleUPnP Server. If these devices are busy with other activity, this could cause gaps between tracks (given that the gapless streaming protocol being used is not "reliable"). The reboot presumably cleared this condition.
RE: Gaps Between Tracks - krutsch - 20-01-2015 22:23
(20-01-2015 21:38)simoncn Wrote: In all these logs I see a long delay (5 to 8 seconds) between MinimServer finishing sending the first track and starting to send the second track. As you are not hearing long gaps, this suggests the streamer (or perhaps BubbleUPnP Server) is doing a lot of buffering.
For "reliable" gapless streaming, the renderer would normally start to stream the second track shortly before the first track has finished streaming.
I don't think you said what device(s) you are using to run MinimServer and BubbleUPnP Server. If these devices are busy with other activity, this could cause gaps between tracks (given that the gapless streaming protocol being used is not "reliable"). The reboot presumably cleared this condition.
Thanks, Simon.
Yes, when the streamer is the control point, it works as I've highlighted above in bold.
When there is an external control point, the Denon DNP-720AE doesn't support gapless playback, but when everything is working well, the gap is very minimal; so, yes, the Denon does appear to buffer.
Anyway, the real fix seems to be to disable "network standby" so that the streamer is cold booting with each session (i.e. power up); I think the Denon has software issues that are resolved with a full boot.
I really want to replace this device, but the Naim and Linn pieces are just insanely expensive. I've looked at the SimAudio Moon 180 MiND, but I don't have a dealer nearby.
Thanks for looking at the logs and keep up the great work.
RE: Gaps Between Tracks - simoncn - 20-01-2015 22:46
(20-01-2015 22:23)krutsch Wrote: Thanks, Simon.
Yes, when the streamer is the control point, it works as I've highlighted above in bold.
In this case, there was a gap of about 5 seconds between the end of track 1 and the start of track 2. This suggests that the Denon is buffering more than 5 seconds of audio.
Quote:When there is an external control point, the Denon DNP-720AE doesn't support gapless playback, but when everything is working well, the gap is very minimal; so, yes, the Denon does appear to buffer.
Anyway, the real fix seems to be to disable "network standby" so that the streamer is cold booting with each session (i.e. power up); I think the Denon has software issues that are resolved with a full boot.
I really want to replace this device, but the Naim and Linn pieces are just insanely expensive. I've looked at the SimAudio Moon 180 MiND, but I don't have a dealer nearby.
Thanks for looking at the logs and keep up the great work.
Good luck with your search for a replacement! You could check the Digital Audio section of this forum for previous recommendations from other users or you could start a thread there asking for suggestions.
RE: Gaps Between Tracks - ants - 03-05-2015 03:10
Hi Simon
I am also having issues with long delays between tracks and gapless playback. Not sure if this is a networking issue but I am hoping you might be able to shed some light on the problem. I’ve attached the log file as per your instructions where I played two consecutive tracks and there was a long delay between tracks (about 10 seconds).
Using MinimServer 0.8.3 update 65 and MinimStreamer 0.5.12 alongside BubbleUPnP Server (0.9-update9) installed and running on a QNAP TS-112.
Digital streamer is a Moon Mind 180, connected via ethernet to a router and connected to amp/dac via coaxial. Using the Lumin iOS app on iPad as a control point.
Thank you in advance for looking into this. Been a fan of Minimserver for some time now.
Cheers
Ants
RE: Gaps Between Tracks - simoncn - 03-05-2015 21:00
(03-05-2015 03:10)ants Wrote: Hi Simon
I am also having issues with long delays between tracks and gapless playback. Not sure if this is a networking issue but I am hoping you might be able to shed some light on the problem. I’ve attached the log file as per your instructions where I played two consecutive tracks and there was a long delay between tracks (about 10 seconds).
Using MinimServer 0.8.3 update 65 and MinimStreamer 0.5.12 alongside BubbleUPnP Server (0.9-update9) installed and running on a QNAP TS-112.
Digital streamer is a Moon Mind 180, connected via ethernet to a router and connected to amp/dac via coaxial. Using the Lumin iOS app on iPad as a control point.
Thank you in advance for looking into this. Been a fan of Minimserver for some time now.
Cheers
Ants
I see the following in the log:
01:59:15.385 the renderer sends a play request for Barricades & Brickwalls/01 Barricades & Brickwalls.m4a
01:59:15.582 MinimServer starts streaming this track
02:02:12.213 the track finishes streaming
02:02:49.215 the renderer sends a play request for Barricades & Brickwalls/06 Nullarbor Song.m4a
02:02:49.815 MinimServer starts streaming this track
This shows that MinimServer starts streaming the track within 0.2 or 0.6 seconds of receiving the play request but the renderer delays for 37 seconds between the end of streaming the first track and sending a play request for the second track. From this, it seems clear that the delay is caused by the renderer.
RE: Gaps Between Tracks - krutsch - 03-05-2015 22:00
(20-01-2015 22:46)simoncn Wrote: Good luck with your search for a replacement! You could check the Digital Audio section of this forum for previous recommendations from other users or you could start a thread there asking for suggestions.
FYI, after a long while, I settled on a Bryston BDP-1. Sounds just fantastic and plays back gapless.
There is a small issue with volume that the I've made the Bryston guys aware of that they've acknowledged and will hopefully fix. The volume stays fixed at 75% on restart and seems to be digitally attenuating the output level.
RE: Gaps Between Tracks - ants - 04-05-2015 02:17
(03-05-2015 21:00)simoncn Wrote: I see the following in the log:
01:59:15.385 the renderer sends a play request for Barricades & Brickwalls/01 Barricades & Brickwalls.m4a
01:59:15.582 MinimServer starts streaming this track
02:02:12.213 the track finishes streaming
02:02:49.215 the renderer sends a play request for Barricades & Brickwalls/06 Nullarbor Song.m4a
02:02:49.815 MinimServer starts streaming this track
This shows that MinimServer starts streaming the track within 0.2 or 0.6 seconds of receiving the play request but the renderer delays for 37 seconds between the end of streaming the first track and sending a play request for the second track. From this, it seems clear that the delay is caused by the renderer.
Thanks for the insight.
I did a test using the Moon Mind iOS app instead of the Lumin app and there are no delays of any sorts. Gapless albums also play without any issues. Played a few dozen tracks and no delays of any sorts.
I then reverted back to the Lumin app and was able to play a few tracks from both a gapless album and non gapless without any delays !
I did not turn off the BubbleUPnP Server on the QNAP.