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Feature suggestion: customise abum, title inside groups
14-04-2013, 05:57 (This post was last modified: 14-04-2013 05:59 by classical11.)
Post: #1
Feature suggestion: customise abum, title inside groups
Hi Simon,

First of all, many thanks for this fantastic piece of software!

My collection contains mostly classical music. I'm in the early stages of sorting out the library (I've been using CDs until now) and I'm trying to emulate all the good aspects of listening to music using physical media. With MinimServer's support for custom tags and intelligent browsing, I think I'm very close to moving away from CDs. (One major remaining area that is probably quite difficult to address is easy access to the digital booklet while listening but I will discuss that separately to see what ideas people have.)

I'm using Minim's great feature of splitting albums into works by tagging individual works with the "group" tag. My suggestion would be be able to customise the album name and track names when listing the contents of a work without affecting what is shown when listing the works (groups) inside an album.

I'll give an example to clarify. I have an album with 2 works (tagged with 'group'):
album: Beethoven: Symphony No. 7 and Triple Concerto
group: Beethoven: Symphony No. 7 in A major, Op. 92\\Beethoven: Triple Concerto in C major for piano, violin and cello, Op. 56

I also have a "movement" tag on each track. The "title" tag is made up of "$group: $movement".

When I browse the album, I see the following listing (Listing 1):

[Album art] Beethoven: Symphony No. 7 and Triple Concerto
London Symphony Orchestra

Beethoven: Symphony No. 7 in A major, Op. 92
Beethoven: Triple Concerto in C major for piano, violin and cello, Op. 56

This is great, and I want to leave it as is. However, when I browse a work, say the Concerto, I get the following listing in BubbleUpnp (Listing 2):

[Album art] Beethoven: Symphony No. 7 and Triple Concerto
London Symphony Orchestra

5. Beethoven: Triple Concerto in C major for piano, violin and cello, Op. 56: I. Allegro
London Symphony Orchestra, Bernard Haitink, Gordan Nikolitch - violin, Tim Hugh - cello, Lars Vogt - piano
6. Beethoven: Triple Concerto in C major for piano, violin and cello, Op. 56: II. Largo
London Symphony Orchestra, Bernard Haitink, Gordan Nikolitch - violin, Tim Hugh - cello, Lars Vogt - piano
7. Beethoven: Triple Concerto in C major for piano, violin and cello, Op. 56: III. Rondo alla polacca
London Symphony Orchestra, Bernard Haitink, Gordan Nikolitch - violin, Tim Hugh - cello, Lars Vogt - piano

What I would prefer to see instead is this:

[Album art] Beethoven: Triple Concerto in C major for piano, violin and cello, Op. 56 [Beethoven: Symphony No. 7 and Triple Concerto]
London Symphony Orchestra

5. I. Allegro
London Symphony Orchestra, Bernard Haitink, Gordan Nikolitch - violin, Tim Hugh - cello, Lars Vogt - piano
6. II. Largo
London Symphony Orchestra, Bernard Haitink, Gordan Nikolitch - violin, Tim Hugh - cello, Lars Vogt - piano
7. III. Rondo alla polacca
London Symphony Orchestra, Bernard Haitink, Gordan Nikolitch - violin, Tim Hugh - cello, Lars Vogt - piano


The reason for this is that it is much cleaner and easier to see what the movements are. This is the normal way movements are listed on a CD back cover. It will also make it easier to see the movements on control points that still refuse to use multiple lines to list tracks (Bubble included) and use the annoying scrolling to show data that does not fit on the screen.

I have tried using the new tagFormat feature in 0.70:

minimserver.tagFormat = Title.displayFormat\={$movement}, Album.displayFormat\={$group$album}

This fixed Listing 2 but, as expected, also changed the group view inside an album (Listing 1) to:

[Album art] Beethoven: Symphony No. 7 in A major, Op. 92, Beethoven: Triple Concerto in C major for piano, violin and cello, Op. 56, Beethoven: Symphony No. 7 and Triple Concerto
London Symphony Orchestra

I. Poco sostenuto - vivace, II. Allegretto, III. Presto, IV. Allegro con brio
I. Allegro, II. Largo, III. Rondo alla polacca

Would it be possible to create some special tags, e.g. Album@Group, Title@Group, that would only modify the listings on the second screen (inside a group)?

Thanks,
Ciprian
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14-04-2013, 10:02
Post: #2
RE: Feature suggestion: customise abum, title inside groups
I think you and I might be the the only two people using the Group tag in this way. Smile

I suggest you try the following on a test album:

1) Change the Title tags on the individual movements to be the name of the movement

2) Set the tagFormat property to just 'Album.displayFormat\={$group$album}'

Does this produce your preferred display format?

Do you need the Movement tags for some other purpose?
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14-04-2013, 21:49
Post: #3
RE: Feature suggestion: customise abum, title inside groups
(14-04-2013 10:02)simoncn Wrote:  I think you and I might be the the only two people using the Group tag in this way. Smile

I suggest you try the following on a test album:

1) Change the Title tags on the individual movements to be the name of the movement

2) Set the tagFormat property to just 'Album.displayFormat\={$group$album}'

Does this produce your preferred display format?

Do you need the Movement tags for some other purpose?

Perhaps people have not realised yet how great this feature is.. Smile

1) I can do this but I need to be able to see the group both when browsing the group's contents and in the Now Playing screen.

2) This does not work nicely. The problem is that some albums contain many short works and doing this would result in huge album names. For the album name I generally give it the name that is on the cover (which is basically a summary of what's in it).


When tagging my music I decided to add various pieces of information in a set of basic tags (e.g. orchestra, conductor, movement, group) and then run a script to populate tags that are visible in the control points (such as artist and title) using the basic tags. For example the title is currently populated with "$group: $movement". So the only reason for the movement tag is to allow me to re-tag the title easily without losing any information.
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14-04-2013, 22:14
Post: #4
RE: Feature suggestion: customise abum, title inside groups
(14-04-2013 21:49)classical11 Wrote:  1) I can do this but I need to be able to see the group both when browsing the group's contents and in the Now Playing screen.

2) This does not work nicely. The problem is that some albums contain many short works and doing this would result in huge album names. For the album name I generally give it the name that is on the cover (which is basically a summary of what's in it).

I think I need to re-read your original post to try to understand what you want to achieve.

Which control point are you using?

Quote:When tagging my music I decided to add various pieces of information in a set of basic tags (e.g. orchestra, conductor, movement, group) and then run a script to populate tags that are visible in the control points (such as artist and title) using the basic tags. For example the title is currently populated with "$group: $movement". So the only reason for the movement tag is to allow me to re-tag the title easily without losing any information.

This sounds very similar to what the tagFormat option is intended to provide.
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15-04-2013, 02:43
Post: #5
RE: Feature suggestion: customise abum, title inside groups
I'm using BubbleUPnP.

If I understand it correctly (please correct me if I'm wrong), Minim passes the control point different information in the Title tag depending on whether you are browsing the top level contents of an album that contains tracks tagged with Group, or if you are browsing the Group itself. In the first instance, the Title passed to the control point will contain the Group tag, in the second instance it will contain the actual Title tag. Minim allows tags to be reformatted for display purposes, however there is no way currently to differentiate between the Title at the album level and the Title at the group level. I need to set a tagFormat only on the Title at the group level. Similarly, I would also like to format the Album tag at the group level only to contain the Group tag instead of the Album tag.

I hope I haven't caused any more confusion with the above explanation. Is my understanding correct?

(14-04-2013 22:14)simoncn Wrote:  This sounds very similar to what the tagFormat option is intended to provide.

The way I see it, tagFormat works very well in conjunction with these basic custom tags that I have. You are correct that with the tagFormat feature I will not need to even tag my library with title and artist, I can use tagFormat to define these using the basic custom tags that I have.
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15-04-2013, 21:55
Post: #6
RE: Feature suggestion: customise abum, title inside groups
(15-04-2013 02:43)classical11 Wrote:  I'm using BubbleUPnP.

If I understand it correctly (please correct me if I'm wrong), Minim passes the control point different information in the Title tag depending on whether you are browsing the top level contents of an album that contains tracks tagged with Group, or if you are browsing the Group itself. In the first instance, the Title passed to the control point will contain the Group tag, in the second instance it will contain the actual Title tag. Minim allows tags to be reformatted for display purposes, however there is no way currently to differentiate between the Title at the album level and the Title at the group level. I need to set a tagFormat only on the Title at the group level. Similarly, I would also like to format the Album tag at the group level only to contain the Group tag instead of the Album tag.

I hope I haven't caused any more confusion with the above explanation. Is my understanding correct?

I've made a few changes to how this is implemented. I hope this will give you what you need.

1) You can now create a Group.displayFormat setting in addition to Title.displayFormat and Album.displayFormat

2) You can now specify the value $group in a format item. This has the following meaning:
For a track that's a member of a group, it's the group name
For a group, it's the group name
For everything else, it's ignored

3) The $album value in a format item has been extended, as follows:
For a track that's a member of an album, it's the album name
For a group that's a member of an album, it's the album name
For an album, it's the album name
For everything else, it's ignored

4) For a track that's a member of a group, the DIDL-Lite presented to the control point has the <upnp:album> value set to the group instead of the album.

Quote:The way I see it, tagFormat works very well in conjunction with these basic custom tags that I have. You are correct that with the tagFormat feature I will not need to even tag my library with title and artist, I can use tagFormat to define these using the basic custom tags that I have.

Yes, exactly. The tagFormat approach allows the substitution and formatting to be done dynamically at runtime instead of needing a previous scripting step.
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16-04-2013, 00:01
Post: #7
RE: Feature suggestion: customise abum, title inside groups
(15-04-2013 21:55)simoncn Wrote:  I've made a few changes to how this is implemented. I hope this will give you what you need.

1) You can now create a Group.displayFormat setting in addition to Title.displayFormat and Album.displayFormat

2) You can now specify the value $group in a format item. This has the following meaning:
For a track that's a member of a group, it's the group name
For a group, it's the group name
For everything else, it's ignored

3) The $album value in a format item has been extended, as follows:
For a track that's a member of an album, it's the album name
For a group that's a member of an album, it's the album name
For an album, it's the album name
For everything else, it's ignored

4) For a track that's a member of a group, the DIDL-Lite presented to the control point has the <upnp:album> value set to the group instead of the album.

Thanks Simon!

I believe 3) and 4), plus retagging my library so that Title=$movement (easy enough to do) would do what I'm after.
1) and 2) are v. useful too.

I'd be happy to test it if you like (I'm on Linux 64 bit).
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16-04-2013, 09:34 (This post was last modified: 16-04-2013 09:35 by bbrip.)
Post: #8
RE: Feature suggestion: customise abum, title inside groups
(15-04-2013 21:55)simoncn Wrote:  I've made a few changes to how this is implemented. I hope this will give you what you need.

1) You can now create a Group.displayFormat setting in addition to Title.displayFormat and Album.displayFormat

2) You can now specify the value $group in a format item. This has the following meaning:
For a track that's a member of a group, it's the group name
For a group, it's the group name
For everything else, it's ignored

3) The $album value in a format item has been extended, as follows:
For a track that's a member of an album, it's the album name
For a group that's a member of an album, it's the album name
For an album, it's the album name
For everything else, it's ignored

4) For a track that's a member of a group, the DIDL-Lite presented to the control point has the <upnp:album> value set to the group instead of the album.

That makes a lot of sense to me and would get me rethinking about using the Group tag as well Wink

bbrip
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16-04-2013, 16:04
Post: #9
RE: Feature suggestion: customise abum, title inside groups
(16-04-2013 00:01)classical11 Wrote:  Thanks Simon!

I believe 3) and 4), plus retagging my library so that Title=$movement (easy enough to do) would do what I'm after.
1) and 2) are v. useful too.

I'd be happy to test it if you like (I'm on Linux 64 bit).

That would be most welcome. Please download 0.71 and give it a try. Smile
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17-04-2013, 10:17
Post: #10
RE: Feature suggestion: customise abum, title inside groups
The new version fully handles what I was after. I didn't even have to retag my library: by setting Title.displayFormat={$movement}, the movements appear as I want them when browsing the contents of a work.

I particularly like the fact that <upnp:album> is now sent to the control point with the Group tag for the tracks that are under a group.

This also has the nice added benefit that the Album and Title tags shown in the Now Playing screen of the control point are much shorter but without losing any useful information.

Thanks very much for the changes and for implementing them so quickly!
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