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trouble with Audirvana and multipl artist tag
07-01-2018, 09:24
Post: #11
RE: trouble with Audirvana and multipl artist tag
(06-01-2018 23:32)pask Wrote:  Beck,

i've downloaded metadatics to give it a try, and ad multiple artists to trackartist tag. it's actually working very nice and metadata are recognized via MinimServer and Audirvana, on both MP3 and Flac, but not for M4P, Audirvana return me the artist group as one...
I should try to contact th developer instead, I think the problem is coming from this app.

Thanks, say hi if you come around Nice, south France, to get a drink with some music Smile

I have no m4p files so I cannot comment on how they respond to tagging nor what tag structures they can support. Glad you are getting on well with Metadatics.
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08-01-2018, 12:50
Post: #12
RE: trouble with Audirvana and multipl artist tag
(06-01-2018 20:11)pask Wrote:  Thanks Paul and Beck for taking the time to get back to me Smile do appreciate it a lot
Yes, using multiple platform with complex tagging ( gendar + composer + all artist ) is actually a nightmare :,(
BUT, i do like a lot the way I'm using my NAS + MacBook Air + audirvana(DLNA version) + DLNA AMP, very fast and flexible, on the same time, NAS + Minimserver + iPad + DLNA AMP is so cool and computer free and has a better WAF factor Big Grin

After doing some investigation, and converting files in different format, I just found out that Andirvana tags are correct via minimserver on all artists tag on files converted to FLAC files. When opening a FLAC file in MP3tag, correct separator are displayed \\, and it works via both platform perfectly... But the same file in M4P version return me ;;;; for miniserver on the all artists tag .... I can't believe I've done something wrong as I ran this test on multiples album with multiples artistes...

A Lord, my collection is 70% M4P... should I really have to convert them to FLAC to get the good display on both platform ? :,( Angry

Well the lazy option could be to only use artist tag when using minimserver on iPad and just forget about the all Artists one ... of course I can live with that Big Grin

Thanks

You've exposed a problem with tagging mp4/m4a files. There isn't a definitive specification for multi-value tags. The tagging scheme that's normally used for these is an approximation to the (proprietary) Apple iTunes scheme. This doesn't define a method for multi-value tags. So, there are a variety of methods used, and they aren't necessarily compatible. In the file structure each of the elements that make up a tag are called atoms. A "standard tag" such as artist, consists of an atom that shows it is an artist tag, and a subsidiary 'data' atom that contains the artist's name. to get multiple artists, the tagging program developer can:

1. duplicate the whole artist tag so that for each artist there is an artist atom with a single data atom. (e.g. mp3tag or MusicBee, or Jaudiotagger Audio Tagging library from Paul Taylor)

2. attach more than one data atom to a single artist atom. (e.g. mutagen and taglib open source tagging libraries, and puddletag or Picard programs (which use mutagen))

3. choose a separator character to put in a single data atom, such as a semi-colon or forward slash. (e.g. taglib-sharp open source library which uses semicolon, or windows 10 explorer which uses forward slash)

MinimServer recognises 1 and recently 2, but not 3. 1 and 2 require somewhat elastic interpretations of the standard (such as it is), 3 is simply a different 'standard'.

A further issue that arises with these different ways of handling multi-value tags is how programs behave when given files tagged using a different scheme to the one they use. If the program is just reading the tags, e.g. MinimServer, it simply doesn't understand them as you expect. If it is writing them it may overwrite them in some way that deletes some. This is most likely to apply to tags described in 1 and 2. So, if you put multi-valued tags in mp4/m4a files using mp3tag or puddletag, what will your Audivarna make of them when importing the files, and what will it do when writing or updating the tags. Scheme 3 tags are more likely to emerge unscathed by alternative tagging programs.
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08-01-2018, 13:46
Post: #13
RE: trouble with Audirvana and multipl artist tag
I respectfully disagree that case 3 is a "standard". The iTunes Metadata Format specification (ITMF) from Apple clearly describes case 2 (see this post) and there is no question that this is a standard. Case 1 is also widely used and supported and although not specifically described in ITMF it is very similar to case 2.

I would regard case 3 as a "hack" like the original Twonky "hack" of using a semicolon to separate multiple values in FLAC tags. As well as the problem of the server needing to know which nonstandard separator has been used, it has the serious flaw of making it impossible for the separator character to appear in a tag value.
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08-01-2018, 15:32 (This post was last modified: 08-01-2018 15:59 by pask.)
Post: #14
RE: trouble with Audirvana and multipl artist tag
Skeptic, i'm very thankful for your help and the time you took to explain me the MP4/MA4 attribute tag.
It's much more clear for me now that the multi tagging issue I have doesn't come from Audirvana or Minimserver supported tag, but the apple lossless files. I've been a long time iTunes user, and this format was the only I used at that time for lossless files... damned.

Thanks Simon again for your support and the job done on Minimserver, awesome !

Well, I must now decide between using Audirvana on a Mac + the dedicated remote app on iPad for a much 'sophisticated' library browsing, or use Minimserver + Lumin App on my iPad and forget about the All Artists tag and only use 'one value' only tag (Artist, Composer, gendar etc.)

Or, convert all my M4P to FLAC Angry

Thanks again to both of you Heart
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09-01-2018, 14:35
Post: #15
RE: trouble with Audirvana and multipl artist tag
(08-01-2018 13:46)simoncn Wrote:  I respectfully disagree that case 3 is a "standard". The iTunes Metadata Format specification (ITMF) from Apple clearly describes case 2 (see this post) and there is no question that this is a standard. Case 1 is also widely used and supported and although not specifically described in ITMF it is very similar to case 2.

I would regard case 3 as a "hack" like the original Twonky "hack" of using a semicolon to separate multiple values in FLAC tags. As well as the problem of the server needing to know which nonstandard separator has been used, it has the serious flaw of making it impossible for the separator character to appear in a tag value.

I'd agree completely. When I wrote: "3 is simply a different 'standard'" my intention was sarcastic. I nearly wrote: "3 is simply a different (non) 'standard'". I'll think about how to edit the post for clarity.

I should remember that this forum although conducted in English, is international, and stick to simple clear language.

Although I think that case 2 is more elegant, I think I should try to use case 1 for pragmatic reasons. It's much more widely supported. Also, very dumb programs that simply list tags often do better with it.
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09-01-2018, 15:10
Post: #16
RE: trouble with Audirvana and multipl artist tag
Don't fight guys Big Grin
both of 3 methods are too complex for me...
One day or another I'll convert my all ALAC library to FLAC, and start the tag from scratch Dodgy
at least, I've learned something about metadata and I'll be more accurate with my files.

Thanks again both of you, and Minimserver Heart

...and no one talks to me anymore about ALAC F@#in' files Big Grin
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