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Wireless system that works with MinimServer? (SONOS alternative)
15-03-2017, 14:24
Post: #11
RE: Wireless system that works with MinimServer? (SONOS alternative)
To my knowledge not many companies have adopted the OpenHome standard. I know of Linn, Auralic and LUMIN. All can use their apps pretty much interchangeably. For instance many Linn owners use the LUMIN app, and the Linn Kazoo app works with Auralic. I don't know how seamless multi-room integration is though, I think for that you may have to commit to one system. There is an OpenHome website and forum, not very useful but you might try asking the question there if there's a list of OpenHome streamers. Good luck.
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15-03-2017, 18:24
Post: #12
RE: Wireless system that works with MinimServer? (SONOS alternative)
In a vintage style, Ruark Audio loudspeaker and systems perform perfectly with minimserver. They are fully DLNA compatible.
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15-03-2017, 20:04 (This post was last modified: 15-03-2017 20:05 by Cebolla.)
Post: #13
RE: Wireless system that works with MinimServer? (SONOS alternative)
With the help of the BubbleUPnP Server software, you should be able to get any Google Chromecast device or Google Cast supporting speaker to stream from any UPnP/DLNA media server, including MinimServer, using any UPnP/DLNA or OpenHome controller.

Google Cast does not support UPnP/DLNA nor OpenHome (aka UPnP with Linn extensions), but the BubbleUPnP Server provides the bridge between the three streaming systems. You should be able to run the BubbleUPnP Server on the same device you are running MinimServer on, since like MinimServer, it requires the Java Runtime and is available for Windows, OS X & Linux platforms.

The only issue with Google Cast is that it does not support gapless playback.
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16-03-2017, 13:07
Post: #14
RE: Wireless system that works with MinimServer? (SONOS alternative)
I tried to find a description of BubbleUPNP Server and it wasn't clear what, exactly, the program does. It says that it transcodes, which I shouldn't need. Everything I have is flac and mp3. So what would it be doing?

I was actually trying to understand how chromecast would work for my situation. Would I use BubbleUPNP (not the server) on a tablet to play music from Minimserver on a chromecast enabled speaker or speaker group? What about iOS devices? And what happens if you start playback (from minimserver or from a streaming service) using one device and want to stop/alter playback from a different device? Does playing two streams (on different speaker groups) require two tablets/phones?

As I've continued to probe I think I've found that searching for "wireless dac" or "wireless preamplifier" seems to be a good way to turn up more options. Almost everybody seems to at least claim multi-room support. I wouldn't call it exponential, but it's something. And of course I keep running across more "standards" such as "DTS Play-Fi" and "Qualcomm Allplay". Brings to mind the old remark about how the great thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from.
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16-03-2017, 17:56 (This post was last modified: 16-03-2017 17:58 by Cebolla.)
Post: #15
RE: Wireless system that works with MinimServer? (SONOS alternative)
(16-03-2017 13:07)adrian Wrote:  I tried to find a description of BubbleUPNP Server and it wasn't clear what, exactly, the program does. It says that it transcodes, which I shouldn't need. Everything I have is flac and mp3. So what would it be doing?
The BubbleUPnP Server software provides a range of optional helper functions, for standard UPnP/DLNA, OpenHome & Chromecast devices. You just configure BubbleUPnP Server to perform the helper function you require and certainly don't configure it for functions you don't require.

Within some of its helper functions, BubbleUPnP Server can transcode, but if you are referring specifically to its Chromecast to standard UPnP/DLNA bridge/translator function (create DLNA renderer) or its Chromecast to OpenHome bridge/translator function (create OpenHome Renderer), transcoding only occours for media files that the 'helped' Chromecast device doesn't natively support.


(16-03-2017 13:07)adrian Wrote:  I was actually trying to understand how chromecast would work for my situation. Would I use BubbleUPNP (not the server) on a tablet to play music from Minimserver on a chromecast enabled speaker or speaker group? What about iOS devices?
I was actually referring specifically to your situation in my last post and you should be able to use the BubbleUPnP Server on the same machine you are running MinimServer. This is the ideal situation as you'll then be able use any standard UPnP/DLNA controller or OpenHome controller on any device, ie, including iOS and not just the BubbleUPnP Android controller app and all of those type of controllers give you access to any UPnP/DLNA media server, not just MinimServer. Perhaps I should have made it clearer with an appropriate link:
BubbleUPnP Server - Turning Google Cast devices into an audio DLNA or OpenHome renderer
[Image: 32618d1484864595-are-media-players-twent...3b12_c.jpg]

(16-03-2017 13:07)adrian Wrote:  And what happens if you start playback (from minimserver or from a streaming service) using one device and want to stop/alter playback from a different device? Does playing two streams (on different speaker groups) require two tablets/phones?
No, using an OpenHome supporting controller app you can use the same app to control any number of independent devices (or in the case of Chromecast, also grouped devices). OpenHome supporting controller apps include:
BubbleUPnP (Android), BubbleDS Next (Android), Linn Kazoo (Windows, OS X, iOS & Android), Lumin (iOS & Android).

Note: you still have to use the Google Home app to set up the Chromecast Audio devices, configure their synced groups, etc.
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16-03-2017, 18:29
Post: #16
RE: Wireless system that works with MinimServer? (SONOS alternative)
(16-03-2017 17:56)Cebolla Wrote:  
(16-03-2017 13:07)adrian Wrote:  I tried to find a description of BubbleUPNP Server and it wasn't clear what, exactly, the program does. It says that it transcodes, which I shouldn't need. Everything I have is flac and mp3. So what would it be doing?
The BubbleUPnP Server software provides a range of optional helper functions, for standard UPnP/DLNA, OpenHome & Chromecast devices. You just configure BubbleUPnP Server to perform the helper function you require and certainly don't configure it for functions you don't require.

Within some of its helper functions, BubbleUPnP Server can transcode, but if you are referring specifically to its Chromecast to standard UPnP/DLNA bridge/translator function (create DLNA renderer) or its Chromecast to OpenHome bridge/translator function (create OpenHome Renderer), transcoding only occours for media files that the 'helped' Chromecast device doesn't natively support.

Are there any other bridge functions it supports? (Any other standards it can connect to?)


Quote:
(16-03-2017 13:07)adrian Wrote:  And what happens if you start playback (from minimserver or from a streaming service) using one device and want to stop/alter playback from a different device? Does playing two streams (on different speaker groups) require two tablets/phones?
No, using an OpenHome supporting controller app you can use the same app to control any number of independent devices (or in the case of Chromecast, also grouped devices). OpenHome supporting controller apps include:
BubbleUPnP (Android), BubbleDS Next (Android), Linn Kazoo (Windows, OS X, iOS & Android), Lumin (iOS & Android).

Note: you still have to use the Google Home app to set up the Chromecast Audio devices, configure their synced groups, etc.

Just to be clear about how this setup would work:

So suppose I set things up as you describe and say I install Linn everywhere. (I've never used Linn, but since it's available on all machines I have a consistent interface.) Then using Android Tablet A I start playing music using Minimserver running on my NAS.

Now suppose I'm not near the tablet I used before so I pull out my iPhone. Will I be able to skip a track or change the playlist, or seek in the playing file? Redirect music to a different speaker (group)? Change playback volume? Adjust relative playback volume of multiple speakers in a group? (This last one would require running the chromecast app, wouldn't it? I'd have to switch apps.)

Now suppose I want to stream from a radio station or amazon prime. Do I run a different app on my phone? Or can I do this without switching apps?

What happens if I am listening to the radio station and I turn off the phone?

In order to group multiple speakers together do they have to use the Chromecast Audio device? Or can speakers that have integrated chromecast be placed into groups?

Is this process using both openhome and chromecast?
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17-03-2017, 12:54 (This post was last modified: 17-03-2017 12:57 by Cebolla.)
Post: #17
RE: Wireless system that works with MinimServer? (SONOS alternative)
(16-03-2017 18:29)adrian Wrote:  Are there any other bridge functions it supports? (Any other standards it can connect to?)
No, like I said earlier BubbleUPnP Server (currently) provides helper functions for standard UPnP/DLNA, OpenHome & Google Cast devices (only). Its bridge functions are:
create OpenHome renderer, for standard UPnP/DLNA renderers;
create OpenHome renderer and/or create standard UPnP/DLNA renderer, for Google Cast devices.


(16-03-2017 18:29)adrian Wrote:  So suppose I set things up as you describe and say I install Linn everywhere. (I've never used Linn, but since it's available on all machines I have a consistent interface.) Then using Android Tablet A I start playing music using Minimserver running on my NAS.
Best not to refer to the Linn Kazoo controller as 'Linn', since there is another (older) Linn controller called Linn Kinsky (unlike Kazoo it supports standard UPnP/DLNA as well as OpenHome, but can be a bit buggy especially for standard UPnP and is missing some of OpenHome's features, such as TIDAL access).


(16-03-2017 18:29)adrian Wrote:  Now suppose I'm not near the tablet I used before so I pull out my iPhone. Will I be able to skip a track or change the playlist, or seek in the playing file? Redirect music to a different speaker (group)? Change playback volume? Adjust relative playback volume of multiple speakers in a group? (This last one would require running the chromecast app, wouldn't it? I'd have to switch apps.)
Yes to all, including the last one (so no need to switch to the Google Home app) - that should be for any OpenHome supporting controller app, not just Kazoo.


(16-03-2017 18:29)adrian Wrote:  Now suppose I want to stream from a radio station or amazon prime. Do I run a different app on my phone? Or can I do this without switching apps?
Talking about not being in the title/moving goal posts. Smile
OpenHome does provide support for internet radio and some online music services (OpenHome Streaming Services - currently can access TIDAL & Qobuz). However, these features are optional and BubbleUPnP Server's created OpenHome renderer supports OpenHome Streaming Services (ie TIDAL & Qobuz access), but not internet radio.

So, you are going to have to switch apps for internet radio, unless you know their URLs and can list them in MinimServer's internet radio feature (via MinimStreamer). Also, not sure if there are any apps that officially support Google Cast from Amazon Prime. Amazon even stopped selling Google Cast devices quite a while back, presumably in preparation for its rival Echo devices.


(16-03-2017 18:29)adrian Wrote:  What happens if I am listening to the radio station and I turn off the phone?
That'll depend on what app you are using and how it's casting to the Chromecast Audio. I know that with the TuneIn app you can switch off the device and the Chromecast Audio it's casting to carries on playing, presumably because TuneIn provides it with the internet radio stream's actual URL.

Incidentally, the OpenHome by design allows the renderer to play the entire playlist, not just the current track that's being played, if the controller is switched off.


(16-03-2017 18:29)adrian Wrote:  In order to group multiple speakers together do they have to use the Chromecast Audio device? Or can speakers that have integrated chromecast be placed into groups?
Apparently you can mix Chromecast Audios & Google Cast supporting speakers in the same group, or, at least by this year following an update, according to Google support:
"Can I add Chromcast built-in audio devices to a group?
We are working on adding Multi-room group playback support to all of our existing and upcoming Chromecast built-in audio devices. This will allow you to group your Chromecast Audio devices and Chromecast built-in audio devices from different brands into one seamless experience. This feature will be rolled out to all Chromecast built-in audio devices throughout 2017."
Source: Google Chomecast Help, Chromecast Audio - Multi-room group playback FAQs


(16-03-2017 18:29)adrian Wrote:  Is this process using both openhome and chromecast?
No, BubbleUPnP Server does not support OpenHome's (optional) grouping feature with its created OpenHome renderer. So the idea is to create a Google Cast group with the Google Home app and then create an OpenHome renderer for that Google Cast group with BubbleUPnP Server.
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17-03-2017, 14:17
Post: #18
RE: Wireless system that works with MinimServer? (SONOS alternative)
(17-03-2017 12:54)Cebolla Wrote:  
(16-03-2017 18:29)adrian Wrote:  Now suppose I want to stream from a radio station or amazon prime. Do I run a different app on my phone? Or can I do this without switching apps?
Talking about not being in the title/moving goal posts. Smile

Hey, SONOS can do it, and I mentioned SONOS in the title. Smile

I mean, what I'm really trying to do here is replace my existing control system (Olive ONE), which has some major deficiencies, with something that works better and still enables us to do the things we already do (or things we now realize that we want to be able to do). Before getting the ONE my music system was a CD player/radio, so I've already come a long way. As I started reading about options it seemed like compatibility with Minimserver was a frequent question, so that was what I was focusing on at least initially.

Quote:So, you are going to have to switch apps for internet radio, unless you know their URLs and can list them in MinimServer's internet radio feature (via MinimStreamer). Also, not sure if there are any apps that officially support Google Cast from Amazon Prime. Amazon even stopped selling Google Cast devices quite a while back, presumably in preparation for its rival Echo devices.

Hmmm. It looks like I can list radio stations in a playlist (using their URLs) and not even need MinimStreamer. I didn't realize this was possible.

Presumably Amazon and Google aren't playing nice here, so getting Amazon Prime to talk to Google Cast might not be seamless.

Quote:
(16-03-2017 18:29)adrian Wrote:  What happens if I am listening to the radio station and I turn off the phone?
That'll depend on what app you are using and how it's casting to the Chromecast Audio. I know that with the TuneIn app you can switch off the device and the Chromecast Audio it's casting to carries on playing, presumably because TuneIn provides it with the internet radio stream's actual URL.

Incidentally, the OpenHome by design allows the renderer to play the entire playlist, not just the current track that's being played, if the controller is switched off.

Sounds like exactly what you want: you use the controller to issue a command and then the renderer executes the command even if the controller subsequently vanishes.

How can I identify hardware that supports chromecast? I was at the google site and they had a list of vendors, and I clicked on "Polk" and that takes me to four products that Polk sells under their Wireless section. They have two portable speakers, a wireless DAC and a wireless integrated amp and no mention of chromecast anywhere. Instead (?) they say the use DTS Play Fi. (Maybe it uses both? Or can google not keep up?) I saw one article that seemed to indicate that DTS Play Fi was a competitor to Chromecast, but that it (currently) has the best hardware support. If that's the case it could be a reason for wanting to use the Play-Fi standard instead (for more hardware options). However, people seem kind of critical of the apps that work with Play Fi. It also sounds like each audio company is selling their own Play Fi controller app rather than there being general apps for the system.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions about this. It's been very helpful.
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17-03-2017, 19:50 (This post was last modified: 17-03-2017 19:54 by Cebolla.)
Post: #19
RE: Wireless system that works with MinimServer? (SONOS alternative)
Computer Audiophile's latest article features DTS Play-Fi and it doesn't look good. Ironically, it looks like its controller has been designed to be used as a relay/proxy, resulting in obvious battery drain on handheld devices! Of course this means that the controller must always be left switched on while the music is playing - even when streaming audio files from a UPnP/DLNA media server. Sad

The only DTS Play-Fi feature/service that doesn't use the controller as the middle man is Spotify, apparently:
CA Articles - DTS Play-Fi Has Major Design Flaws
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17-03-2017, 20:15
Post: #20
RE: Wireless system that works with MinimServer? (SONOS alternative)
(17-03-2017 19:50)Cebolla Wrote:  Computer Audiophile's latest article features DTS Play-Fi and it doesn't look good. Ironically, it looks like its controller has been designed to be used as a relay/proxy, resulting in obvious battery drain on handheld devices! Of course this means that the controller must always be left switched on while the music is playing - even when streaming audio files from a UPnP/DLNA media server. Sad

The only DTS Play-Fi feature/service that doesn't use the controller as the middle man is Spotify, apparently:
CA Articles - DTS Play-Fi Has Major Design Flaws

Wow, that's pretty bad. I guess I can strike Play-Fi from the list. Chromecast is looking like the way to go.
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