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dsf to wav : what CPU power ?
10-12-2016, 13:12
Post: #51
RE: dsf to wav : what CPU power ?
Thanks for the details.

2 and 3 are already covered in my dev version of BubleUPnP. For 1, I will need to add special treatment.
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11-12-2016, 09:59
Post: #52
RE: dsf to wav : what CPU power ?
(08-12-2016 13:56)bubbleguuum Wrote:  BubbleUPnP when playing to an OpenHome renderer will always send the first stream resource to the OH renderer without doing
any mime-type check (this is an anomaly that I should fix).
Thus if the Sonore OH renderer advertises "audio/dsd", "audio/dsf", "audio/dff" but MinimServer uses the correct "x-" versions of these mime-types, then theoretically the Sonore should still play the DSD version of the stream if it comes as first res in the DIDL-Lite sent by MinimServer (and the Sonore renderer doesn't trip on the x- mime-type).

Now if you play that same track to the Sonore UPnP AV renderer and mime-type check is enabled, BubbleUPnP will play the wav stream as the mime-type cannot be matched between MinimServer and Sonore for DSD. For some mime-types, BubbleUPnP add missing aliases (eg if a renderer advertises audio/flac, BubbleUPnP will add audio/x-flac. But not for DSD mime-types where BubbleUPnP only recognizes the x- versions. I could probably add the non x- versions as aliases as I don't think it would cause any problems.

Hi bubbleguuum,
Do you have a plan to fix the anomaly you describe in the first sentence of your post about OH playback?

If I do not use a stream.transcode entry the Sonore OH will play DSD64 and DSD128 files as expected.

What is the DIDL-Lite message you refer to? Is this unique to OH renderers? Is there a way to see the response is from my Sonore OH renderer?

I have MIME check enabled on BubbleUPnP CP but from your post I think this only applies for UPnP AV renderers.
Is this correct?

If I do not have any entries in MinmStreamer stream.transcode and use the Sonore UPnP AV renderer should it still play the DSD files?

I read in a later post that you have included the aliases in your DEV version of BubbleUPnP. A BIG THANK YOU from me.

I really appreciate your involvement and finding a solution for this mismatch.

Chip
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11-12-2016, 12:23
Post: #53
RE: dsf to wav : what CPU power ?
(10-12-2016 12:08)bubbleguuum Wrote:  
(10-12-2016 11:13)chip Wrote:  I understand what you are saying now that you have given me such a thorough education. Thanks again for that.

I think the best option would be for Sonore to advertise compatibility with the audio/x- MIME types since that would insure compatibility with programs that use either. I am anxious to hear if they are willing to do that.

The second best option would be for BubbleUPnP to recognize the audio/x- MIME types as an alias as mentioned by the developer.
from bubbleguum:
"For some mime-types, BubbleUPnP add missing aliases (eg if a renderer advertises audio/flac, BubbleUPnP will add audio/x-flac. But not for DSD mime-types where BubbleUPnP only recognizes the x- versions. I could probably add the non x- versions as aliases as I don't think it would cause any problems."

Do you think my ideas are correct or did I miss something?

Your humble student,
Chip


I will add the aliases. It should make BubbleUPnP pickup the DSF/DSD stream when playing to the Sonore as an UPnP AV renderer.
But Sonore should really add the correct x- mime-types, instead of using invented ones.

Hi bubbleguuum,
I will keep asking Sonore to add the audio/x- MIME types and post anything I get back from them here for everyone.
I want to thank you for going out of your way to make BubbleUPnP work for your user community even when the problem is in another device.
EXCELLENT service, Thank you,
Chip
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11-12-2016, 15:00
Post: #54
RE: dsf to wav : what CPU power ?
(11-12-2016 09:59)chip Wrote:  Do you have a plan to fix the anomaly you describe in the first sentence of your post about OH playback?

Yup but no promise when.

Quote:If I do not use a stream.transcode entry the Sonore OH will play DSD64 and DSD128 files as expected.

Ok, can you confirm that the Sonore is made OH with BubbleUPnP Server ? Not that it doesn't have much importance but that's just so I know.


Quote:I have MIME check enabled on BubbleUPnP CP but from your post I think this only applies for UPnP AV renderers.
Is this correct?

Yes, for OH renderers, whatever stream is listed first in the track's metadata dialog (3 dot menu > Show metadata) is sent to the OH renderer for playback whether it supports it or not.

Quote:If I do not have any entries in MinmStreamer stream.transcode and use the Sonore UPnP AV renderer should it still play the DSD files?

If you disable mime-type check, it should, as it will send the first (DSD) stream URL to the Sonore without checking.
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11-12-2016, 16:29 (This post was last modified: 11-12-2016 17:34 by chip.)
Post: #55
RE: dsf to wav : what CPU power ?
(11-12-2016 15:00)bubbleguuum Wrote:  
(11-12-2016 09:59)chip Wrote:  If I do not use a stream.transcode entry the Sonore OH will play DSD64 and DSD128 files as expected.

Ok, can you confirm that the Sonore is made OH with BubbleUPnP Server ? Not that it doesn't have much importance but that's just so I know.

Hi bubbleguuum,
I can confirm that the Sonore OpenHome renderer is created using BubbleUPnP Server.

Music Library
QNAP TVS-463
MinimServer 0.8.4 update 88
MinimStreamer 0.5.2
Bubble UPnP Server Version 0.9-update21

Control Point
Samsung Galaxy Tab S2 tablet
BubbleUPnP version 2.8.3.1

Renderer
Sonore Signature Rendu shown as Audio Render-143 (OpenHome) in BubbleUPnP Server

DAC
PS Audio DirectStream DAC

Sonore Signature Rendu is connected to DS DAC via I2S interface.
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12-12-2016, 18:27
Post: #56
RE: dsf to wav : what CPU power ?
(10-12-2016 12:39)simoncn Wrote:  
(10-12-2016 12:22)bubbleguuum Wrote:  I will also make BubbleUPnP recognize audio/x-dsd (and the alias audio/dsd). This is purely for display in the Now Playing screen for the codec which will display as "DSD".
Does MinimServer ever send this mime-type and in which case ?

The history of audio/dsd is that JRiver sends it for both DSF and DFF, leaving it to the renderer to work out which of these it is. Some other products (renderers and possibly servers) have imitated this. MinimServer always uses the specific audio/x-dsf and audio/x-dff types. never audio/x-dsd.

For aliasing purposes in the control point, I think the following should work:

1) A renderer that claims to support audio/dsd or audio/x-dsd should be considered compatible with the following server types:

audio/dsd or audio/x-dsd
audio/dsf or audio/x-dsf
audio/dff or audio/x-dff

This is not required for the Sonore but is required for renderers such as the Melco N1, which advertises audio/dsd and audio/x-dsd only.

2) A renderer that claims to support audio/dsf or audio/x-dsf should be considered compatible with the following server types:

audio/dsf or audio/x-dsf

3) A renderer that claims to support audio/dff or audio/x-dff should be considered compatible with the following server types:

audio/dff or audio/x-dff

A question : is there somewhere a database / web site of how do all renderers which you can buy advertises their support ?

That would be instructive (cf. my problem where dsf:-/wav24;176 with a klimax does work with kinsky app, but does not work with kazoo nor lumin app ?)

Thx
Serge
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13-12-2016, 11:15
Post: #57
RE: dsf to wav : what CPU power ?
(12-12-2016 18:27)lyapounov Wrote:  A question : is there somewhere a database / web site of how do all renderers which you can buy advertises their support ?

That would be instructive (cf. my problem where dsf:-/wav24;176 with a klimax does work with kinsky app, but does not work with kazoo nor lumin app ?)

Thx
Serge

It is easy to find this information for any renderers that you own by using the Device Spy tool. See this post for instructions on how to do this for a UPnP AV renderer using the GetProtocolInfo action of the ConnectionManager service. For an OpenHome renderer, you need to use the ProtocolInfo action of the Playlist service.

I am not aware of any database containing this information for all renderers.
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13-12-2016, 21:27 (This post was last modified: 14-12-2016 07:53 by chip.)
Post: #58
RE: dsf to wav : what CPU power ?
(12-12-2016 18:27)lyapounov Wrote:  A question : is there somewhere a database / web site of how do all renderers which you can buy advertises their support ?

That would be instructive (cf. my problem where dsf:-/wav24;176 with a klimax does work with kinsky app, but does not work with kazoo nor lumin app ?)

Thx
Serge

Hi Serge,
I think you have run into the problems we experience with the UPnP Standard that is not really a firm standard but open to interpretation by vendors. Some good, some not so good.

I will try to recap what I have learned from Simon and bubbleguuum over the last couple of weeks.

Music Library Server - I assume you are using MinimServer/MinimStreamer
The music server advertises the file formats it can server natively and through transcoding.
Native format: audio/x-dsf
Transcoded format: dsf:-/wav24;176 (native DSF and DSF to WAV24;176)

Music Renderer - Linn Klimax DS
Advertises the file formats it can playback.
audio/x-wav

Control Points - needs to match server and renderer file types
Linn Kinsky queries the music server and learns it can serve both native DSF files and transcode DSF files to WAV for playback.
Linn Kinsky queries the Linn Klimax DS and learns it can play back audio/x-wav files but not audio/x-dsf files.
Linn Kinsky then knows it can request the music server to send the transcoded file (DSF to WAV24;176) to the Klimax DS.
Linn Kinsky request the server to send the transcoded file (DSF to WAV24;176) to the Klimax for playback.

It sounds like the Kazoo and Lumin apps are not able to match server capabilities with renderer playback capabilities.
They do not know to request the transcoded file from the server so the server is probably sending the DSF file which the Klimax can not play.

At least that is my understanding.

Simon, bubbleguuum,
If I have gotten anything wrong, please correct my understanding by reply. I appreciate all you have done for me and I certainly do not want to lead anyone astray in this minefield.

Chip
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21-12-2016, 17:07 (This post was last modified: 21-12-2016 17:08 by bubbleguuum.)
Post: #59
RE: dsf to wav : what CPU power ?
Discussed DSD mime-type handling added to BubbleUPnP 2.8.5p1 beta.
It only applies to controlling UPnP AV renderers, as there is still no mime-type check for OpenHome renderers.
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