Post Reply 
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Flac:wav and DXD
20-01-2016, 18:21
Post: #1
Flac:wav and DXD
I have noticed that transcoding flac:wav then playing a DXD file produces silence. Is this intended? Also unable to remove the dsf:dopwav etc.

Melco N1ZH/2 MinimServer, Chord M Scaler, DAVE, SPM1200MKII, Wilson Benesch Vectors
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
20-01-2016, 19:01
Post: #2
RE: Flac:wav and DXD
(20-01-2016 18:21)beckphotonik Wrote:  I have noticed that transcoding flac:wav then playing a DXD file produces silence. Is this intended?

It is not intended. It might be a control point or player issue. What was the resolution of the FLAC file and what was the format and resolution of the DXD file?

Quote:Also unable to remove the dsf:dopwav etc.

What happens when you delete these and click the OK button?
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
20-01-2016, 19:29
Post: #3
RE: Flac:wav and DXD
(20-01-2016 19:01)simoncn Wrote:  
(20-01-2016 18:21)beckphotonik Wrote:  I have noticed that transcoding flac:wav then playing a DXD file produces silence. Is this intended?

It is not intended. It might be a control point or player issue. What was the resolution of the FLAC file and what was the format and resolution of the DXD file?

Quote:Also unable to remove the dsf:dopwav etc.

What happens when you delete these and click the OK button?

DXD is 352.8KHz 24bit flac, albums downloaded from NativeDSD.
The dsf:dopwav, can be removed by deleting, click apply/ok but closing the properties window and reopening the properties window shows them still there.

Melco N1ZH/2 MinimServer, Chord M Scaler, DAVE, SPM1200MKII, Wilson Benesch Vectors
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
20-01-2016, 20:46
Post: #4
RE: Flac:wav and DXD
(20-01-2016 19:29)beckphotonik Wrote:  DXD is 352.8KHz 24bit flac, albums downloaded from NativeDSD.

Were you transcoding this file to WAV or playing it natively as FLAC? What exactly was the sequence of operations that caused silence to be playing?

Quote:The dsf:dopwav, can be removed by deleting, click apply/ok but closing the properties window and reopening the properties window shows them still there.

Is this on the Melco? There is a custom setting on the Melco to apply this as the default setting if the stream.transcode field is empty. I would be interested to know why you don't want these transcode settings to be active.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
20-01-2016, 22:56 (This post was last modified: 20-01-2016 23:18 by beckphotonik.)
Post: #5
RE: Flac:wav and DXD
(20-01-2016 20:46)simoncn Wrote:  
(20-01-2016 19:29)beckphotonik Wrote:  DXD is 352.8KHz 24bit flac, albums downloaded from NativeDSD.

Were you transcoding this file to WAV or playing it natively as FLAC? What exactly was the sequence of operations that caused silence to be playing?

Quote:The dsf:dopwav, can be removed by deleting, click apply/ok but closing the properties window and reopening the properties window shows them still there.

Is this on the Melco? There is a custom setting on the Melco to apply this as the default setting if the stream.transcode field is empty. I would be interested to know why you don't want these transcode settings to be active.

DXD flac:wav, I used to set flac:wav24 before I had the Melco and streamed over Ethernet. I thought of trying flac:wav on the Melco USB to see if it made a difference, it works fine up to 192KHz PCM but not DXD. The flac plays perfectly if I remove the flac:wav transcode option.

Dsf:dopwav, yes this is on the Melco. I am trying to help Alan at Melco diagnose a problem that appears to be an issue with the Melco/Chord combination. What I want to do is make sure the DoP processing is performed by the Melco natively and not by MinimStreamer as they perform differently. I have uninstalled MinimStreamer to make sure the DoP processing is performed by the Melco for my tests. I shall reinstate it later as I believe the MinimStreamer DoP implementation performs better (more stable) than the Melco implementation.

Melco N1ZH/2 MinimServer, Chord M Scaler, DAVE, SPM1200MKII, Wilson Benesch Vectors
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
21-01-2016, 10:28 (This post was last modified: 21-01-2016 10:37 by simoncn.)
Post: #6
RE: Flac:wav and DXD
(20-01-2016 22:56)beckphotonik Wrote:  DXD flac:wav, I used to set flac:wav24 before I had the Melco and streamed over Ethernet. I thought of trying flac:wav on the Melco USB to see if it made a difference, it works fine up to 192KHz PCM but not DXD. The flac plays perfectly if I remove the flac:wav transcode option.

Thanks, I understand the scenario now. I registered with NativeDSD but there aren't any DXD test tracks in FLAC format that I could download (they are all WAV). Instead, I downloaded a DXD FLAC file from 2L and this plays OK as native FLAC and also with flac:wav transcoding. I was using Linn Kinsky and the Melco USB renderer with a USB connection to my Chord Hugo TT.

What control point, renderer and DAC were you using? Can you try the same 2L test track that I was using? You can download it from this link.

Edit: Is it possible that the FLAC file you were using was so large that uncompressing it to WAV exceeded the 4GB size limit for WAV files? (Some renderers have a 2GB limit for WAV files and some renderers have other limits for the largest file size they can accept.) Can you try the smallest DXD file you have to see if this makes a difference?
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
26-01-2016, 19:41
Post: #7
RE: Flac:wav and DXD
(21-01-2016 10:28)simoncn Wrote:  
(20-01-2016 22:56)beckphotonik Wrote:  DXD flac:wav, I used to set flac:wav24 before I had the Melco and streamed over Ethernet. I thought of trying flac:wav on the Melco USB to see if it made a difference, it works fine up to 192KHz PCM but not DXD. The flac plays perfectly if I remove the flac:wav transcode option.

Thanks, I understand the scenario now. I registered with NativeDSD but there aren't any DXD test tracks in FLAC format that I could download (they are all WAV). Instead, I downloaded a DXD FLAC file from 2L and this plays OK as native FLAC and also with flac:wav transcoding. I was using Linn Kinsky and the Melco USB renderer with a USB connection to my Chord Hugo TT.

What control point, renderer and DAC were you using? Can you try the same 2L test track that I was using? You can download it from this link.

Edit: Is it possible that the FLAC file you were using was so large that uncompressing it to WAV exceeded the 4GB size limit for WAV files? (Some renderers have a 2GB limit for WAV files and some renderers have other limits for the largest file size they can accept.) Can you try the smallest DXD file you have to see if this makes a difference?

Your test track works! My smallest track is 210MB, about 3 times the size of yours and I cannot tell what compression factor it is so it could be quite large.
This really is not a big deal for me, I just thought it strange that it didn't work so thought it would be appropriate to report it. Unless you want to investigate further, I am happy to consider this closed.

Melco N1ZH/2 MinimServer, Chord M Scaler, DAVE, SPM1200MKII, Wilson Benesch Vectors
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
26-01-2016, 20:03
Post: #8
RE: Flac:wav and DXD
(26-01-2016 19:41)beckphotonik Wrote:  Your test track works! My smallest track is 210MB, about 3 times the size of yours and I cannot tell what compression factor it is so it could be quite large.
This really is not a big deal for me, I just thought it strange that it didn't work so thought it would be appropriate to report it. Unless you want to investigate further, I am happy to consider this closed.

What is the exact 210 MB track that you used? I am willing to purchase this track from NativeDSD and test it on my equipment. It might be size-related or there could be some other issue.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
27-01-2016, 10:35
Post: #9
RE: Flac:wav and DXD
(26-01-2016 20:03)simoncn Wrote:  
(26-01-2016 19:41)beckphotonik Wrote:  Your test track works! My smallest track is 210MB, about 3 times the size of yours and I cannot tell what compression factor it is so it could be quite large.
This really is not a big deal for me, I just thought it strange that it didn't work so thought it would be appropriate to report it. Unless you want to investigate further, I am happy to consider this closed.

What is the exact 210 MB track that you used? I am willing to purchase this track from NativeDSD and test it on my equipment. It might be size-related or there could be some other issue.

The track can be found at 2xhd.nativedsd.com/albums/take-one and it is track 8.
I have done some more listening this morning on headphones and other phenomena have become apparent. My tracks all start ok but break up and become silent after anything from a couple of bars to a few seconds. I have not noticed this before as the tracks I tried before my first post all started very quietly and I could well have missed this, please accept my apologies.
My test system is as described in my signature, control point is BubbleUPnP.

Melco N1ZH/2 MinimServer, Chord M Scaler, DAVE, SPM1200MKII, Wilson Benesch Vectors
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
27-01-2016, 18:02 (This post was last modified: 27-01-2016 18:02 by simoncn.)
Post: #10
RE: Flac:wav and DXD
(27-01-2016 10:35)beckphotonik Wrote:  The track can be found at 2xhd.nativedsd.com/albums/take-one and it is track 8.
I have done some more listening this morning on headphones and other phenomena have become apparent. My tracks all start ok but break up and become silent after anything from a couple of bars to a few seconds. I have not noticed this before as the tracks I tried before my first post all started very quietly and I could well have missed this, please accept my apologies.
My test system is as described in my signature, control point is BubbleUPnP.

I purchased this track and I am hearing the same problem when the renderer is the Melco USB-DAC renderer and the server is MinimServer running on the Melco.

The problem is caused by a combination of issues:

1) The FLAC compression level of this track is too high to enable MinimStreamer running on the Melco to decompress it in real time. This is because MinimServer uses a Java library for decompression and this library has slower performance than the native FLAC library that the Melco renderer uses when MinimServer is playing a FLAC DXD file.

2) As a workaround for issue 1), I used dBpoweramp to change the compression level of the FLAC file to level 2 so that MinimStreamer can decompress it in real time. This exposed a buffering problem with the Melco USB-DAC renderer. It seems this renderer needs a fairly large initial quantity of data to prime its internal buffer and MinimStreamer doesn''t send a large enough initial quantity of transcoded data to enable the renderer to "lock onto" the stream and start playing audio.

3) As a workaround for issue 2), I have changed the way MinimStreamer buffers the stream so that it builds up a larger chunk of transcoded data before it starts sending any data to the renderer. This enables MinimStreamer to push a large enough initial quantity of data into the renderer's buffer to enable the renderer to "lock onto" the stream and play it correctly from the beginning. There is a short delay while this is happening before the stream starts playing but it isn't too much of a problem (less than 2 seconds). This change will be included in the next update to MinimStreamer.

To play your DXD FLAC files correctly using flac:wav transcoding, you will need to use dBpoweramp to convert them to compression level 2 and you will need to install the next MinimStreamer update. This should be available fairly soon.

Thanks for letting me know about this. Solving it has turned out to be quite a challenge! The FLAC compression level issue would apply when using MinimStreamer to transcode FLAC DXD to WAV on any low-powered device. The buffering issue seems to be specific to the Melco renderer and I hope the slight extra delay at the start of streaming doesn't cause any problem with other renderers. I will think about whether it would be useful to make this a configurable setting.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 


Forum Jump:


User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)