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Transcoding combinations UPnP and Internet Radio
13-03-2015, 18:57
Post: #31
RE: Transcoding combinations UPnP and Internet Radio
(13-03-2015 18:41)Pastim Wrote:  Ah Ha! At last. Somewhere down the line, having said I was missing something fundamental, I have never noticed that this was the case. You may well have said so, or implied so, but I've not taken it in. You did say 'will not be transcoded' against my examples of this, but I did not realise the full import of what you said (I foolishly assumed that you meant it was somehow picking up the - part without the ^). So I have always assumed it was not completely ignored, and so have gone round and round in ever decreasing circles failing to find a workable solution that I can understand and make work.

If there are others who might fall into the same confusion it might help to have a brief mention in the user guide.

I won't ask why this is the way it works, I'm just happy to now know.

Thanks again.

I'm pleased this conversation has reached a successful conclusion. Smile

The user guide covers UPnP only. The instructions for internet radio are on the MinimRadio page and I have chosen not to complicate this page by discussing transcoding there.

The "*" case was introduced because some UPnP control points and renderers need to know the stream type in advance before they open the stream. Using the "*" case enables MinimStreamer to give the control point the transcoded stream type in advance even though MinimStreamer doesn't know the actual stream type in advance. This situation doesn't arise for internet radio, so the "*" case doesn't apply there.
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13-03-2015, 21:43
Post: #32
RE: Transcoding combinations UPnP and Internet Radio
(13-03-2015 18:57)simoncn Wrote:  
(13-03-2015 18:41)Pastim Wrote:  Ah Ha! At last. Somewhere down the line, having said I was missing something fundamental, I have never noticed that this was the case. You may well have said so, or implied so, but I've not taken it in. You did say 'will not be transcoded' against my examples of this, but I did not realise the full import of what you said (I foolishly assumed that you meant it was somehow picking up the - part without the ^). So I have always assumed it was not completely ignored, and so have gone round and round in ever decreasing circles failing to find a workable solution that I can understand and make work.

If there are others who might fall into the same confusion it might help to have a brief mention in the user guide.

I won't ask why this is the way it works, I'm just happy to now know.

Thanks again.

I'm pleased this conversation has reached a successful conclusion. Smile

The user guide covers UPnP only. The instructions for internet radio are on the MinimRadio page and I have chosen not to complicate this page by discussing transcoding there.

The "*" case was introduced because some UPnP control points and renderers need to know the stream type in advance before they open the stream. Using the "*" case enables MinimStreamer to give the control point the transcoded stream type in advance even though MinimStreamer doesn't know the actual stream type in advance. This situation doesn't arise for internet radio, so the "*" case doesn't apply there.
Ok. I won't ask why it doesn't arise for an Internet radio device. I'd rather hoped for a 'This option is only applicable to UPnP devices' against the "*" option, but I will make my own notes instead, because I will not remember this in 1 months time and don't want to fall into the trap (of my own making) again.

The End. Big Grin
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13-03-2015, 22:49 (This post was last modified: 14-03-2015 00:32 by simoncn.)
Post: #33
RE: Transcoding combinations UPnP and Internet Radio
(13-03-2015 21:43)Pastim Wrote:  Ok. I won't ask why it doesn't arise for an Internet radio device. I'd rather hoped for a 'This option is only applicable to UPnP devices' against the "*" option, but I will make my own notes instead, because I will not remember this in 1 months time and don't want to fall into the trap (of my own making) again.

The End. Big Grin

It doesn't arise for an internet radio device because this device isn't using UPnP to play the stream.

At some point in the future, I might attempt to merge the UPnP and internet radio instructions. If and when this happens, I will add the note that you have suggested.
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14-03-2015, 15:51
Post: #34
RE: Transcoding combinations UPnP and Internet Radio
(13-03-2015 22:49)simoncn Wrote:  At some point in the future, I might attempt to merge the UPnP and internet radio instructions. If and when this happens, I will add the note that you have suggested.

I have updated the description of the "*" input type to clarify some out-of-date information and add this note.
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14-03-2015, 18:24
Post: #35
RE: Transcoding combinations UPnP and Internet Radio
(14-03-2015 15:51)simoncn Wrote:  
(13-03-2015 22:49)simoncn Wrote:  At some point in the future, I might attempt to merge the UPnP and internet radio instructions. If and when this happens, I will add the note that you have suggested.

I have updated the description of the "*" input type to clarify some out-of-date information and add this note.
Thanks very much. Big Grin
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14-03-2015, 18:33
Post: #36
RE: Transcoding combinations UPnP and Internet Radio
(13-03-2015 10:27)Pastim Wrote:  I can't test when I don't have the device I'm thinking of buying.

Furthermore, whilst I'm happy to tinker, I need to understand. When I say 'need', I am stupidly obsessive about it. It bothers me. As a (retired) technical architect I can't really go forward without a design I comprehend.

That is a holistic approach but flawed by unknowns, I see Simon has filled in the gaps. My brothers a retired electronic engineer and he doesn't plan a job he engineers and improvises, takes a pride in lecturing that when things go wrong, since he hasn't planned, and that he can engineer his way threw it, even thou it's a disaster. Plannings good but there are limits and no planning can be a disaster....

Perhaps Simon can explain why a Denon network player doesn't see it as a "UPnP control point" and needs the URLs entered. That's one of my questions in life.
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14-03-2015, 18:34
Post: #37
RE: Transcoding combinations UPnP and Internet Radio
To conclude, I have now tested that the following works on my Musical Fidelity M1 CLiC and Marantz CR603, both UPnP and Internet Radio, and on my software renderers as well (upmpdcli and mpd).

Code:
flac:wav24;192/L16;96/-, *:wav24;96/L16;96, aac:wav24;96/L16;96/-^, mp3:wav24;96/L16;96/-^
My flacs, and any aac or mp3s I might have get the best treatment my renderers can handle, streams of unknown codec ditto, aac and mp3 streams can be received both by UPnP and Internet Radio.

I don't plan to tinker any more!

I may now start looking for a small Internet Radio for another room at some point, but will wait a little until the BBC mayhem settles down a bit.

Thanks for all your help.
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14-03-2015, 18:49
Post: #38
RE: Transcoding combinations UPnP and Internet Radio
(14-03-2015 18:33)Tell Wrote:  
(13-03-2015 10:27)Pastim Wrote:  I can't test when I don't have the device I'm thinking of buying.

Furthermore, whilst I'm happy to tinker, I need to understand. When I say 'need', I am stupidly obsessive about it. It bothers me. As a (retired) technical architect I can't really go forward without a design I comprehend.

That is a holistic approach but flawed by unknowns, I see Simon has filled in the gaps. My brothers a retired electronic engineer and he doesn't plan a job he engineers and improvises, takes a pride in lecturing that when things go wrong, since he hasn't planned, and that he can engineer his way threw it, even thou it's a disaster. Plannings good but there are limits and no planning can be a disaster....
My line of work used to be interbank payment IT systems. When you try to get several such large organisations together improvising is impossible, so it was all planned, and planned to death, including planning for the unknown as far as one could. We avoided unknowns by working rather hard at making sure the unknowns became known. It's become a habit. I still get things to work but probably via a longer process than is strictly necessary (this used to be a difference between UK and US IT development until speed became more important than extreme reliability).
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14-03-2015, 20:44
Post: #39
RE: Transcoding combinations UPnP and Internet Radio
(14-03-2015 18:49)Pastim Wrote:  My line of work used to be interbank payment IT systems. When you try to get several such large organisations together improvising is impossible, so it was all planned, and planned to death, including planning for the unknown as far as one could. We avoided unknowns by working rather hard at making sure the unknowns became known. It's become a habit. I still get things to work but probably via a longer process than is strictly necessary (this used to be a difference between UK and US IT development until speed became more important than extreme reliability).

Operational Research was my line of business and consultancy after I branched out but in the public sector where complexity rules. A lot of strategic planning and modelling in the early days and there are buildings about that I had a an influence in and know the past before market forces became the order of the day so I moved into regulation of these markets and consultancy there in Smile. Moving the money about on annual contracts rather than the planning of actual services on a 10 year horizon. Although nowadays they get built in a couple of years but don't have a financial plan to support them using PFI monies which then undermine all other providers around them (they tend to have helicopters on their roofs so you know what I'm talking about). You have to like Mrs T or not.

I tend to plumb all my sound through one separate AV surround sound processor for the lounge. An output of that PCM SPDIF goes through the wall to the office and a DAC. A long cable feeds the kitchen sound so it is all in synch at times. Being an early adopter of minidisc I've been use to compressed sound, then MP3 but now playing FLAC. Since I hear whistling in my ears most of the time related to a compressed ear drum during a budget flight several years back it would be a total waste of money for me to invest in high quality sound systems above what I've got unless to cover up the background whistle !.

I am going to invest in a NEET Wifi Music receiver to give a bit more flexibility to get the HLS source into my system having failed to get my Humax HDR to communicate in an online UPnP sense with MinimStreamer or Serviio, seems the Koreans decided it was functionality that one didn't need. AV people would only play recorded stuff not want to access online materiel. Use my Android tablet in bed with headphones. I use the office PC as the music server plus podcasts through Serviio when I don't want to wear head phones. So you never know I might have some questions soon in relation to the NEET.... I see it's all suppose to be done in the m4a Apple standard but given that is what HLS AAC is no degradation then.

I don't think the technical side on the BBC changing things will settle down any time soon. I suspect the manufactures that aren't using file servers plus software and high end streamers won't becoming up with solutions. It's external applications like MinimStreamer running on servers or in server mode on PCs or Mac or little boxes like the Raspberry Pi are the order of the day if you want "high quality" digital internet based BBC Radio, don't want to use BBC iPlayer apps tethered to devices, or you don't have a high end system or a discontinued device that hobbyists are supporting in their spare time.
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14-03-2015, 22:52
Post: #40
RE: Transcoding combinations UPnP and Internet Radio
(14-03-2015 18:33)Tell Wrote:  Perhaps Simon can explain why a Denon network player doesn't see it as a "UPnP control point" and needs the URLs entered. That's one of my questions in life.

Perhaps you should ask Denon that question. It might be that the UPnP control point part of the Denon is sending byte-range requests or can't play AAC ADTS streams or needs a stream type in the m3u file or needs a transcoding setting or ????
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