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ReplayGain
22-06-2016, 20:48
Post: #31
RE: ReplayGain
(21-06-2016 09:16)Pepsican Wrote:  In my mind we're overcomplicating things here. Make it a property maintained through MinimWatch. No need for complex automated decision making. Leave control to the end user. In my mind this is not a setting you'd want to tweak every few minutes.

This could be done but it is more complex for MinimStreamer to support mutiple gain options. Also, this approach is less convenient for the user.

Quote:Why does the gain need to be applied before ffmpeg does its magic? You could pick up the values for ReplayGain, prior to ffmpeg processing, and when the processed signal comes out of ffmpeg, apply the replay gain. My understanding is that this is what AssetUPnP does. True, it is not as easy but it is not undoable I think.

This not possible in MinimStreamer because MinimStreamer uses ffmpeg for all audio processing and I don't think it makes sense to route the audio through ffmpeg twice. It might be possible to find a way to make ffmpeg do upsampling before applying gain but I don't think it will be simple to configure and test this.

Quote:Foobar2000 comes with its own problems. Most notably that it needs to run on a PC as there is no tablet, NAS or phone app. My playback chain is already complicated enough without yet another component to manage.

You could run Asset UPnP as this seems to do exactly what you want and it runs on other platforms as well as Windows.

I will keep this item on my list of requested enhancements but there are many other items with higher priority that have been requested by more users.

I would not be able to invest the time in providing this support as well as implementing support for making gain values available to the control point and/or renderer (as discussed with Servatius).
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23-06-2016, 07:34
Post: #32
RE: ReplayGain
(22-06-2016 20:48)simoncn Wrote:  
(21-06-2016 09:16)Pepsican Wrote:  In my mind we're overcomplicating things here. Make it a property maintained through MinimWatch. No need for complex automated decision making. Leave control to the end user. In my mind this is not a setting you'd want to tweak every few minutes.

This could be done but it is more complex for MinimStreamer to support mutiple gain options. Also, this approach is less convenient for the user.

Quote:Why does the gain need to be applied before ffmpeg does its magic? You could pick up the values for ReplayGain, prior to ffmpeg processing, and when the processed signal comes out of ffmpeg, apply the replay gain. My understanding is that this is what AssetUPnP does. True, it is not as easy but it is not undoable I think.

This not possible in MinimStreamer because MinimStreamer uses ffmpeg for all audio processing and I don't think it makes sense to route the audio through ffmpeg twice. It might be possible to find a way to make ffmpeg do upsampling before applying gain but I don't think it will be simple to configure and test this.

Quote:Foobar2000 comes with its own problems. Most notably that it needs to run on a PC as there is no tablet, NAS or phone app. My playback chain is already complicated enough without yet another component to manage.

You could run Asset UPnP as this seems to do exactly what you want and it runs on other platforms as well as Windows.

I will keep this item on my list of requested enhancements but there are many other items with higher priority that have been requested by more users.

I would not be able to invest the time in providing this support as well as implementing support for making gain values available to the control point and/or renderer (as discussed with Servatius).

Agent is not an option as it falls short in other areas (Can't do custom tags well, no support for Synology or any other NAS except QNap, focused on English language (i.e. will filter "The" from artist name out, but not the non-English equivalents like Le, La, Der, Die, De, Het, Los, etc.), less flexible in sorting within folders, etc).

Another point why this should best be taken care of at server level rather than the control point, is the variety of control points we have. And in some case, you need to use the control point of the manufacturer to be able to use all functionality. I use three different control points at home. If one would start to do ReplayGain, the problem still persists with the two other control points and their associated devices.

If it is more complex for MinimStreamer to support multiple tags, go with ReplayGain_album.

Regarding your point about going through ffmpeg twice, I was not aware that the volume leveling would also need to happen in ffmpeg. I agree with you that sending the signal through it twice sounds inefficient.
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17-01-2018, 15:48
Post: #33
RE: ReplayGain
Hi,

I just want to support the idea of being able to reduce the output level via a tag processed by Minimserver/streamer.
This would be very, very useful to me.

It could be a simple (?) case of adding a value in percent or dB for regulation of each track. Or for each album if this then also works when you select tracks individually.
And it could very well be part of a transcoding proces, that is not available if your stream the music without transcode.

I would love to convert my "hyperboosted" albums from approx 2000 and onwards to FLAC, add a ReplayGain tag value of say -12dB, and then when transcoding to WAV in Minimstreamer also have the level reduced to something that comes closer to the other albums I usually listen to.

Today, there can be a HUGE difference in sound level from album to album. And it's really annoying having to adjust the volume on the preamp quite regularly when listening to mixed playlists. If I'm listening to an older cd (like Dire Straits 1980s albums) recorded at "normal" level and the amp is set to medium volume (like you can still talk together), and next track is something like my daughters Jennifer Paige "Stranded" from 2002, the level changes to what I would use when having 10-15 people dancing at a party. I don't dare to imagine what would happen if I started out with party level on the Dire Straits track.......

So, I really do hope that I could have the output level from Minimserver reduced somehow, or - and which would be just as fine - I could reduce the level in a conversion from WAV to FLAC (I could then convert all the relevant albums from WAV to FLAC with reduced output level).

I hope this makes sense to other than myself.

Claus
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18-01-2018, 15:36 (This post was last modified: 18-01-2018 15:37 by timster.)
Post: #34
RE: ReplayGain
(17-01-2018 15:48)ClausDK Wrote:  Hi,

I just want to support the idea of being able to reduce the output level via a tag processed by Minimserver/streamer.
This would be very, very useful to me.

It could be a simple (?) case of adding a value in percent or dB for regulation of each track. Or for each album if this then also works when you select tracks individually.
And it could very well be part of a transcoding proces, that is not available if your stream the music without transcode.

I would love to convert my "hyperboosted" albums from approx 2000 and onwards to FLAC, add a ReplayGain tag value of say -12dB, and then when transcoding to WAV in Minimstreamer also have the level reduced to something that comes closer to the other albums I usually listen to.

Today, there can be a HUGE difference in sound level from album to album. And it's really annoying having to adjust the volume on the preamp quite regularly when listening to mixed playlists. If I'm listening to an older cd (like Dire Straits 1980s albums) recorded at "normal" level and the amp is set to medium volume (like you can still talk together), and next track is something like my daughters Jennifer Paige "Stranded" from 2002, the level changes to what I would use when having 10-15 people dancing at a party. I don't dare to imagine what would happen if I started out with party level on the Dire Straits track.......

So, I really do hope that I could have the output level from Minimserver reduced somehow, or - and which would be just as fine - I could reduce the level in a conversion from WAV to FLAC (I could then convert all the relevant albums from WAV to FLAC with reduced output level).

I hope this makes sense to other than myself.

Claus

To set a non-destructive Replay Gain tag you can use dbPoweramp Batch Converter, with the the ReplayGain codec installed. Then you can apply a track or album gain to part or the whole of your library. There is a version that actual changes the data, so make sure you use the right one!

Asset UPnP has the ability to apply this gain, but it requires transcoding unfortunately. If Minim could do it without the need to transcode that would be great.
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18-01-2018, 16:51
Post: #35
RE: ReplayGain
It isn't practical to do this without transcoding. I think your best option would be either of the following:

1) Use dPoweramp ReplayGain tagging (with no change to the audio data) and use Asset UPnP as your server (set to do gain adjustment and transcoding)

2) Use dPoweramp conversion (changing the audio data to permanently reduce the level) and use MinimServer as your server
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18-01-2018, 17:16
Post: #36
RE: ReplayGain
I thought it may be. No reason he can't do 1) and still run Minim, using Asset only when needs be. That's what I do now. It's really only needed for playlists I've found.
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18-01-2018, 19:18
Post: #37
RE: ReplayGain
Yes, that makes sense.
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22-01-2018, 13:11
Post: #38
RE: ReplayGain
Seems that my issue with “hot”cd’s is solved, or at least I have a way to reduce the output.

With Most of the hot cd’s I am ok with storing them as flacs, and when converting with Foobar I also add replaygain, minus 8-10db seems appropriate. I will probably have to adjust this a bit for some semi-hot albums, but that’s no big deal.

So, The huge difference in sound level is gone.

What’s left, perhaps, is that the sound quality might have been degraded in the process as well.
Does anyone know if that’s the case, and if yes, how much I loose, compared to say when converting to 320k mp3 files. And if the degradation depends on the replaygain adjustment level?

Finally, can I convert back to original WAV file with replaygain removed (from flac2) ?

Thanks for your replies

Claus
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22-01-2018, 13:35
Post: #39
RE: ReplayGain
Forgot to add that I have setup Minimstreamer to convert to Wav at replay.

Claus
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22-01-2018, 18:58
Post: #40
RE: ReplayGain
Found out a few things.

File size gets smaller the more I reduce gain. So I expect sound quality to drop accordingly.

And Foobar clearly says that adding replay gain to the file degrades quality and is irreversible.

So, the concept of having a tag value that takes effect at the same time as converting flac to wav on the fly would be quite useful, since I could just keep the files unchanged.

I was advised to, if possible, upsample to 24bit before adding negative replay gain, since this was likely to reduce the negative impact on SQ. Would this at all be possible with MinimServer ?

Claus
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